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anyone could see the game was over by

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that point

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in fact i was just about to issue an

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official surrender when they released

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those parachutes

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think i gave the order

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we both know i'm not above killing

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children

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but i'm not wasteful that's of course a

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clip from the movie hunger games

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a film that's getting a lot of extra

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attention lately

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as the line between film

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movies entertainment and live action

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role playing

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and real life all seem to be getting

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more

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don't talk

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directly about in my upcoming interview

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with the very excellent kurt jamungal

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who has a terrific new movie out

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better left unsaid about the

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impossibility

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of talking with woke people even for

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progressive

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left-leaning men of color like kurt

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but i think a lot of the issues are the

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same like

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take for example this clip well even if

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they say they have no values their body

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acts as if they have values because they

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move

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and they value something above not

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talking if they talk

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so just by their actions they convey

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their values and again i i just think

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you you go back and talk to shermer and

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ask him and see what his

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answer is but what i've done with

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shermer is you can ask him do you value

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science do you value truth and he might

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say yes

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he values it as a social construct

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that's fine

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social constructs i don't think it's

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fine at all i think it completely

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it completely skates the issue the issue

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is as you've put your finger on i think

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is there a moral imperative the the

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question is

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who are we why are we here welcome to

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skeptico where we explore controversial

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science and spirituality

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with leading researchers thinkers and

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their critics

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i'm your host alex sicaris and today we

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welcome kurt jamungel the skeptico

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curt is a very accomplished filmmaker

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and

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actor based in toronto you know i

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initially

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contacted kurt because i was super

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impressed with his youtube channel

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which i'm actually showing up on the

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screen here and some of his

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just excellent interviews on

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consciousness

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atheism free will and all the

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interesting stuff we love to talk about

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on scott on skeptico

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um highlighting one that he did with

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donald hoffman

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with over 143 000 views fantastic we all

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know

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don hoffman was one of my favorite

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guests to have on and is featured in the

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book that i have

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so since my initial contact with kurt

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he has released this pretty amazing

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movie just

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extremely well done movie called better

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left

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unsaid so i thought what we'd do

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is kind of shift the focus a little bit

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over to this movie

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and i'm showing his imd imdb page which

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is quite impressive as well

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but we'll we'll just kind of talk about

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a bunch of different things

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i'm going to of course give him the

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usual

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skeptico inquiry to perpetuate doubt

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treatment he won't escape that but he's

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a really smart guy so i know he can take

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it

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kurt welcome to skeptico and thanks so

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much for joining me

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thank you so much man i appreciate it by

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the way i read your book

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read it last night it was way

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it was far better than i expected not to

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not that i didn't

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wait a minute what kind of backhanded

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camp woman is that

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i was a i was impressed and

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especially the let's say the first 66

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the first two thirds

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it's almost exactly in line with what

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i'm interested in anyway

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yeah i think there's a great

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intersection there

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um but i think we can help people maybe

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jump into this even better if we share

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a trailer from the new film this is

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better left

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unsaid and i'm going to play it and

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we'll just kind of listen and then we'll

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ask

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kurt to comment on it and tell us in his

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own words what the movie is about

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i four little children will not be

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judged by the color of their skin but by

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the content of their character

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the world is upside down i thought the

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whole idea was to not

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judge people by their skin color that's

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what racism used to mean

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i can no longer teach contemporary moral

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problems anything that involved issues

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of race

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and gender seems to me a minefield

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racism has been redefined sexism has

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been redefined

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this is this is all through the culture

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and if we can't talk what's left i'm not

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a nazi

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why are we not taught the historical

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consequences of those who viewed the

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world

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through optics of groups that have power

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in groups that don't

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is this not the central problem of our

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time

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powerful stuff great stuff

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tell us more about this

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kickstarter super successful kickstarter

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that you did you obviously have

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resonated with a lot of people

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tell us about what the movie is all

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about and what the reaction has been so

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far

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sure so the reaction hasn't the

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reaction's been

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extremely positive from everyone who

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doesn't identify as being

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a leftist and people who identify as

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being

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not on the left but a part of let's say

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the extreme left or radical left

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they tend to not like the film people

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who are center left

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center and center right seem to

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extremely enjoy the film

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what it's about my background is in math

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and physics so i'm extremely analytical

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and i hear it's insensate clamoring of

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people on the

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let's say the radical end of the left

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and i'm trying to make sense of it

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especially in the university that's

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where i

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was trained so i'm like okay what's

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going on when people say that white

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people can't be racist

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and that it's

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an inveterate part of their constitution

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racism it's almost like original sin in

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the christian doctrine

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can't get rid of it you're born with it

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you get they don't like to be called

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essentialists

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essentialist means that there are

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subsistent qualities of you that you

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it seems contradictory but part of what

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i like

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book by the way alex

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is that even though i'm let's say a

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mathematician or a physicist

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by training i'm not a mathematician like

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man that's an honor that

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i can't claim i'm not a physicist either

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i just have training in that

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now even though i have even though i

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have training in that

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most physicists as you know most

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physicists and most people who call

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themselves scientists

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dislike ambiguity they dislike what they

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can't define

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they dislike what they can't prove or

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disprove and they dismiss

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almost they have a swift dismissal of

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what seems

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contradictory and meaningless so

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i share almost all the traits with

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scientists except that i find

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that part of maybe that's my artist's

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side

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anyway so i'm trying to analyze this and

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see why what

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sense is there in the senseless that's

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what this movie is is about

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how did it get this way what's right

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about what they're saying what's wrong

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about what they're saying from my

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perspective with an analytical

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background that's pretty much it

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so you you touched on a couple

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interesting things there i might just

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return us to

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donald hoffman since we don't both have

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a lot of

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respect for the guy and you did an

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outstanding interview

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with him and he was super impressed by

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your interview

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which is always a great measuring stick

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i think you know because youtuber

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comments to me

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aren't quite as significant as when don

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hoffman says

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wow you really did a good interview i

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gotta take that as

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a as a higher compliment which he did

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for you

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you know when i talked to hoffman one of

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the really interesting

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exchanges we had was

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i was talking to him about spirituality

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and i was talking to him about eckhart

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tolle

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and he paused for a minute and a smile

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came over his face and he says

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i have a lot of respect for eckhart

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tolle and i meditate on a regular basis

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and then he told me a story that i think

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gets to the first part of what you're

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saying

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he says one day i was giving a

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presentation and somebody

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uh came up at the end and in a very kind

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of smirky way

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said the language of god

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is silence everything else

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is meaningless and hoffman said

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he stopped for a minute he thought and

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then he said

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okay i can live with that if we're going

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to be silent

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then i can be silent but everyone

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who has a religious point of view about

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what god is about what spirituality does

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it ultimately follows that up with pages

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upon pages upon

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books upon volumes about not silence

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about what the

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rules are and he said

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so if we are going to speak

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let's try and be as precise as possible

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and he said as a mathematician that's

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what i love

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about math it keeps me in check

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in terms of being precise and i wonder

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if there isn't a strange

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link to what you were saying

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about your analytical approach and

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how much frustration you feel with

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academia which has come has

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overtly just disassociated themselves

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with

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and we can argue that part of that is a

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reaction to

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what they see as an absurdity

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that was done in the past either from a

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social justice standpoint

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or from a religious standpoint but still

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we wind up

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in this place where they've kind of left

289
00:10:54,310 --> 00:10:50,399
the dock

290
00:10:56,550 --> 00:10:54,320
of reason and don't even pretend to

291
00:10:58,550 --> 00:10:56,560
have a need to go back to it and that's

292
00:11:01,590 --> 00:10:58,560
what i think your movie does

293
00:11:05,269 --> 00:11:01,600
just an incredibly uh direct and

294
00:11:07,509 --> 00:11:05,279
and well argued way of just exposing

295
00:11:10,389 --> 00:11:07,519
that for what it is so

296
00:11:12,230 --> 00:11:10,399
do you have any thoughts on on that with

297
00:11:13,430 --> 00:11:12,240
regard to academia leaving precision

298
00:11:15,110 --> 00:11:13,440
i think what you're referring to is the

299
00:11:16,790 --> 00:11:15,120
non-stem field stem fields are all about

300
00:11:18,630 --> 00:11:16,800
rigor and i like that but the non-stem

301
00:11:20,630 --> 00:11:18,640
fields

302
00:11:22,069 --> 00:11:20,640
their job is to be not precise so that's

303
00:11:25,190 --> 00:11:22,079
not my problem

304
00:11:27,110 --> 00:11:25,200
my issue in the film is

305
00:11:28,389 --> 00:11:27,120
you have to have a value so you have to

306
00:11:31,110 --> 00:11:28,399
say

307
00:11:33,430 --> 00:11:31,120
what is this for is this for the

308
00:11:35,670 --> 00:11:33,440
flourishing of society is this for

309
00:11:37,110 --> 00:11:35,680
the pursuit of knowledge wherever it

310
00:11:38,550 --> 00:11:37,120
takes me so you have to have some value

311
00:11:40,470 --> 00:11:38,560
you have to have some aim

312
00:11:42,550 --> 00:11:40,480
what seems to have happened in the

313
00:11:44,550 --> 00:11:42,560
non-stem fields is

314
00:11:47,190 --> 00:11:44,560
there's something called modernism which

315
00:11:49,269 --> 00:11:47,200
is actually people misuse its modernity

316
00:11:50,710 --> 00:11:49,279
it's not modernism even though i use the

317
00:11:51,990 --> 00:11:50,720
term modernism in the film it's just

318
00:11:53,030 --> 00:11:52,000
because most people use it that way

319
00:11:56,710 --> 00:11:53,040
modernism is the art

320
00:11:58,230 --> 00:11:56,720
the artistic movement modernity is the

321
00:11:59,750 --> 00:11:58,240
philosophical framework that comes along

322
00:12:01,350 --> 00:11:59,760
with that so

323
00:12:03,430 --> 00:12:01,360
what came from modernity was the

324
00:12:05,509 --> 00:12:03,440
enlightenment or the enlightenment

325
00:12:08,069 --> 00:12:05,519
spread modernity one of those two

326
00:12:10,790 --> 00:12:08,079
then you can think of that as skepticism

327
00:12:11,990 --> 00:12:10,800
when i was talking to michael schermer

328
00:12:13,509 --> 00:12:12,000
i asked him what's wrong with

329
00:12:15,190 --> 00:12:13,519
post-modernism because to me

330
00:12:19,670 --> 00:12:15,200
post-modernism is the same

331
00:12:21,990 --> 00:12:19,680
as skepticism just applied universally

332
00:12:22,710 --> 00:12:22,000
he didn't give me an adequate answer

333
00:12:23,990 --> 00:12:22,720
except to

334
00:12:27,030 --> 00:12:24,000
venerate science and just say well

335
00:12:30,150 --> 00:12:27,040
that's what we shouldn't be skeptical of

336
00:12:32,150 --> 00:12:30,160
anyway going back to the non-stem fields

337
00:12:33,350 --> 00:12:32,160
they have a post-modern bend which means

338
00:12:36,150 --> 00:12:33,360
they dislike

339
00:12:37,670 --> 00:12:36,160
all values well where will that lead you

340
00:12:38,949 --> 00:12:37,680
it seems like they don't dislike all

341
00:12:41,430 --> 00:12:38,959
values it also seems like they're

342
00:12:43,350 --> 00:12:41,440
influenced by what's called marxism

343
00:12:44,870 --> 00:12:43,360
and marxism in and of itself doesn't

344
00:12:47,269 --> 00:12:44,880
seem so bad

345
00:12:48,069 --> 00:12:47,279
on the face of it because it's all about

346
00:12:51,110 --> 00:12:48,079
sharing it seems

347
00:12:53,030 --> 00:12:51,120
egalitarian it seems even christian

348
00:12:54,150 --> 00:12:53,040
but yet it seems like there's something

349
00:12:57,030 --> 00:12:54,160
more

350
00:12:57,590 --> 00:12:57,040
darker and pestilential under the

351
00:13:03,829 --> 00:12:57,600
surface

352
00:13:04,870 --> 00:13:03,839
are influenced by post-modernism marxism

353
00:13:06,790 --> 00:13:04,880
and a few others

354
00:13:08,470 --> 00:13:06,800
even some of what i like like

355
00:13:11,190 --> 00:13:08,480
existentialism they're influenced by but

356
00:13:13,590 --> 00:13:11,200
i don't bring that up in the film

357
00:13:14,870 --> 00:13:13,600
it was just a moot point so the non-stem

358
00:13:16,069 --> 00:13:14,880
feels when you talk about lack of rigor

359
00:13:17,670 --> 00:13:16,079
i don't care about that that's fine

360
00:13:20,310 --> 00:13:17,680
because art is lack of rigor

361
00:13:21,670 --> 00:13:20,320
and also remember at part of my core

362
00:13:25,350 --> 00:13:21,680
it's like

363
00:13:28,629 --> 00:13:25,360
rigor and art because i'm a filmmaker

364
00:13:30,550 --> 00:13:28,639
so i like art it's just the value

365
00:13:31,990 --> 00:13:30,560
what are you critiquing underneath are

366
00:13:33,269 --> 00:13:32,000
you critiquing

367
00:13:36,069 --> 00:13:33,279
and what are you aimed at it's basically

368
00:13:38,629 --> 00:13:36,079
what are you aimed at that i

369
00:13:39,829 --> 00:13:38,639
i'm not quite sure of and i don't

370
00:13:42,550 --> 00:13:39,839
necessarily agree with

371
00:13:43,430 --> 00:13:42,560
in the non-stem fields see i kind of

372
00:13:46,389 --> 00:13:43,440
look at it

373
00:13:47,269 --> 00:13:46,399
slightly differently and my approach is

374
00:13:49,910 --> 00:13:47,279
that

375
00:13:51,110 --> 00:13:49,920
fundamentally there's only two questions

376
00:13:53,750 --> 00:13:51,120
that we're asking

377
00:13:54,949 --> 00:13:53,760
across the board whether it's don

378
00:13:58,069 --> 00:13:54,959
hoffman

379
00:13:59,750 --> 00:13:58,079
at caltech as a physicist or whether

380
00:14:01,750 --> 00:13:59,760
it's one of the wacky

381
00:14:03,590 --> 00:14:01,760
quote unquote philosophers that you're

382
00:14:06,550 --> 00:14:03,600
talking to in the post-modern

383
00:14:08,069 --> 00:14:06,560
academia and the two questions are who

384
00:14:09,430 --> 00:14:08,079
are we why are we here

385
00:14:11,189 --> 00:14:09,440
essentially that's the question it's

386
00:14:12,389 --> 00:14:11,199
also the question of religion that's the

387
00:14:15,670 --> 00:14:12,399
question of religion

388
00:14:19,750 --> 00:14:15,680
who are we why are we here my feeling

389
00:14:23,110 --> 00:14:19,760
about uh the soft sciences academia

390
00:14:26,389 --> 00:14:23,120
are the they've built their

391
00:14:27,590 --> 00:14:26,399
castle on sand on a foundation of sand

392
00:14:29,110 --> 00:14:27,600
it doesn't hold

393
00:14:31,269 --> 00:14:29,120
because they have a fundamental

394
00:14:33,829 --> 00:14:31,279
misunderstanding of consciousness

395
00:14:35,189 --> 00:14:33,839
they've bought into this michael shermer

396
00:14:37,030 --> 00:14:35,199
supported idea

397
00:14:38,790 --> 00:14:37,040
that consciousness is an illusion

398
00:14:41,350 --> 00:14:38,800
consciousness is an

399
00:14:43,269 --> 00:14:41,360
epiphenomenon of the brain and that

400
00:14:46,870 --> 00:14:43,279
therefore

401
00:14:49,750 --> 00:14:46,880
there can never be a moral imperative

402
00:14:50,550 --> 00:14:49,760
there can't be if the universe is

403
00:14:52,629 --> 00:14:50,560
meaningless

404
00:14:54,629 --> 00:14:52,639
if for biological robots in a

405
00:14:58,790 --> 00:14:54,639
meaningless universe

406
00:15:01,750 --> 00:14:58,800
there cannot be a moral good and bad

407
00:15:03,110 --> 00:15:01,760
and so i think the the sleight of hand

408
00:15:04,790 --> 00:15:03,120
that's been done

409
00:15:06,710 --> 00:15:04,800
and some of them are aware of it and

410
00:15:09,670 --> 00:15:06,720
some of them aren't

411
00:15:10,550 --> 00:15:09,680
is that if you don't understand

412
00:15:13,670 --> 00:15:10,560
consciousness

413
00:15:18,870 --> 00:15:13,680
if you accept the radically absurd

414
00:15:21,990 --> 00:15:18,880
idea that consciousness is an illusion

415
00:15:23,829 --> 00:15:22,000
then you you you can't go anywhere

416
00:15:25,110 --> 00:15:23,839
what do you think about that okay let's

417
00:15:27,590 --> 00:15:25,120
get to the fundamental

418
00:15:29,350 --> 00:15:27,600
nature of consciousness afterward i'm

419
00:15:31,990 --> 00:15:29,360
gonna comment on what you said directly

420
00:15:33,590 --> 00:15:32,000
with two religious references so there's

421
00:15:33,990 --> 00:15:33,600
someone named hildegard to bingham i

422
00:15:36,790 --> 00:15:34,000
believe

423
00:15:38,870 --> 00:15:36,800
she was a a christian monk i know i

424
00:15:41,350 --> 00:15:38,880
could be completely mangling this but

425
00:15:42,230 --> 00:15:41,360
in the middle ages and she has a passage

426
00:15:45,430 --> 00:15:42,240
that

427
00:15:46,870 --> 00:15:45,440
resonates with me

428
00:15:49,030 --> 00:15:46,880
you're a christian you're you're a

429
00:15:49,269 --> 00:15:49,040
christian right kurt i don't know what i

430
00:15:51,670 --> 00:15:49,279
am

431
00:15:52,470 --> 00:15:51,680
i'll say that okay i'll say in many ways

432
00:15:58,310 --> 00:15:52,480
i hope

433
00:15:59,189 --> 00:15:58,320
we can talk about that after so

434
00:16:02,310 --> 00:15:59,199
hildegard

435
00:16:03,350 --> 00:16:02,320
said and pride germinated in the first

436
00:16:06,790 --> 00:16:03,360
angel

437
00:16:09,110 --> 00:16:06,800
as he no longer could comprehend

438
00:16:10,870 --> 00:16:09,120
the source of his own light and so he

439
00:16:12,550 --> 00:16:10,880
spoke to himself

440
00:16:15,189 --> 00:16:12,560
i want to be master and want none above

441
00:16:17,110 --> 00:16:15,199
me now there's so much in that passage

442
00:16:19,590 --> 00:16:17,120
pride germinated in the first angels so

443
00:16:21,269 --> 00:16:19,600
it's talking about satan

444
00:16:23,990 --> 00:16:21,279
then he spoke to himself meaning

445
00:16:25,990 --> 00:16:24,000
extremely individualistic now that means

446
00:16:27,430 --> 00:16:26,000
like i'm a fan of individualism but i

447
00:16:30,470 --> 00:16:27,440
think individualism gets

448
00:16:31,670 --> 00:16:30,480
taken to an extreme on the extreme left

449
00:16:32,629 --> 00:16:31,680
which is about collectivism and i'll

450
00:16:35,509 --> 00:16:32,639
tell you how that

451
00:16:36,550 --> 00:16:35,519
plays later well i can give you a sneak

452
00:16:38,310 --> 00:16:36,560
preview right now

453
00:16:40,069 --> 00:16:38,320
because they say i assert what meaning

454
00:16:41,350 --> 00:16:40,079
is so if i dress up like a girl it

455
00:16:41,910 --> 00:16:41,360
doesn't mean i dress up like a girl

456
00:16:43,269 --> 00:16:41,920
because

457
00:16:44,550 --> 00:16:43,279
who cares about what society says i

458
00:16:45,509 --> 00:16:44,560
create my own meaning and if i dress up

459
00:16:47,829 --> 00:16:45,519
like a boy so and so

460
00:16:49,509 --> 00:16:47,839
so i create my own meaning that's

461
00:16:51,350 --> 00:16:49,519
extremely individualistic

462
00:16:54,310 --> 00:16:51,360
okay so that's cool that's what hilda no

463
00:16:57,910 --> 00:16:54,320
hildegard also said

464
00:17:01,430 --> 00:16:57,920
that again i apologize for my lack of

465
00:17:05,590 --> 00:17:01,440
coherent thinking hildegard also said

466
00:17:07,590 --> 00:17:05,600
i want none above me i want to be master

467
00:17:08,789 --> 00:17:07,600
now that seems to be what divides the

468
00:17:12,470 --> 00:17:08,799
religious

469
00:17:15,510 --> 00:17:12,480
atheistic

470
00:17:16,390 --> 00:17:15,520
which is i don't want an external

471
00:17:19,909 --> 00:17:16,400
imposer of

472
00:17:20,949 --> 00:17:19,919
values i want to run it and now jake

473
00:17:23,590 --> 00:17:20,959
hubby

474
00:17:25,669 --> 00:17:23,600
said something interesting i think it's

475
00:17:29,270 --> 00:17:25,679
from the 1800s he said

476
00:17:31,029 --> 00:17:29,280
that you have to excuse me because i'm

477
00:17:34,789 --> 00:17:31,039
trying to remember these quotes

478
00:17:37,990 --> 00:17:34,799
he said that man chooses either god

479
00:17:38,390 --> 00:17:38,000
or nothingness okay now either there's a

480
00:17:40,549 --> 00:17:38,400
god

481
00:17:41,990 --> 00:17:40,559
or there's nothingness now let's say man

482
00:17:45,110 --> 00:17:42,000
chooses nothingness

483
00:17:47,669 --> 00:17:45,120
then man turns himself into a god

484
00:17:48,150 --> 00:17:47,679
why because it's impossible if there is

485
00:17:49,909 --> 00:17:48,160
nothing

486
00:17:51,510 --> 00:17:49,919
that everything i see is merely an

487
00:17:52,150 --> 00:17:51,520
apparition i mean it's impossible that

488
00:17:53,909 --> 00:17:52,160
that

489
00:17:55,190 --> 00:17:53,919
is not the case in other words it's all

490
00:17:56,549 --> 00:17:55,200
an illusion like you're referenced with

491
00:17:57,830 --> 00:17:56,559
michael shermer

492
00:18:02,789 --> 00:17:57,840
therefore i'm the only thing that's real

493
00:18:10,470 --> 00:18:06,789
it's either god exists beyond me

494
00:18:12,470 --> 00:18:10,480
or i am a god there is no third option

495
00:18:15,430 --> 00:18:12,480
there is a third option and that's the

496
00:18:18,230 --> 00:18:15,440
point consciousness is an illusion

497
00:18:18,710 --> 00:18:18,240
is an assertion that they're they're not

498
00:18:21,510 --> 00:18:18,720
is

499
00:18:23,510 --> 00:18:21,520
nothingness to be above but that your

500
00:18:26,630 --> 00:18:23,520
existence doesn't exist

501
00:18:29,990 --> 00:18:26,640
the voice inside your head is not real

502
00:18:30,870 --> 00:18:30,000
and so i i kind of feel like when you go

503
00:18:32,789 --> 00:18:30,880
around this

504
00:18:34,070 --> 00:18:32,799
you kind of miss two things that i think

505
00:18:37,350 --> 00:18:34,080
are central one

506
00:18:39,110 --> 00:18:37,360
is the absolute absurdity of that and i

507
00:18:41,590 --> 00:18:39,120
think you as a spiritual

508
00:18:43,510 --> 00:18:41,600
person who obviously understands that

509
00:18:47,510 --> 00:18:43,520
you are more that you're not

510
00:18:50,390 --> 00:18:47,520
meaningless that you have uh

511
00:18:51,590 --> 00:18:50,400
you have free will these obvious things

512
00:18:53,510 --> 00:18:51,600
are taken off the

513
00:18:55,669 --> 00:18:53,520
the equation but the other thing that i

514
00:18:57,510 --> 00:18:55,679
think people who haven't processed the

515
00:19:00,870 --> 00:18:57,520
christian thing completely

516
00:19:02,310 --> 00:19:00,880
they kind of don't see how christianity

517
00:19:04,630 --> 00:19:02,320
has been complicit

518
00:19:06,070 --> 00:19:04,640
in this whole thing and how they've set

519
00:19:08,150 --> 00:19:06,080
it all up and that

520
00:19:10,150 --> 00:19:08,160
a lot of this stuff that we're seeing on

521
00:19:13,510 --> 00:19:10,160
the left is reactionary

522
00:19:17,510 --> 00:19:13,520
to the absurdity of

523
00:19:20,470 --> 00:19:17,520
a pedo pope the absurdity of

524
00:19:22,390 --> 00:19:20,480
a cosmology within christianity that is

525
00:19:25,029 --> 00:19:22,400
completely ridiculous

526
00:19:26,150 --> 00:19:25,039
and yet we have to placate and be nice

527
00:19:28,390 --> 00:19:26,160
to christians and

528
00:19:30,070 --> 00:19:28,400
quote unquote respect christian beliefs

529
00:19:32,789 --> 00:19:30,080
about adam and eve

530
00:19:34,070 --> 00:19:32,799
or noah's ark or the special day or any

531
00:19:36,470 --> 00:19:34,080
of the rest of that stuff

532
00:19:37,669 --> 00:19:36,480
so there's two parts of that one is

533
00:19:41,350 --> 00:19:37,679
christians have to

534
00:19:44,789 --> 00:19:41,360
understand the absurdity of their

535
00:19:46,950 --> 00:19:44,799
uh proposition and of their cosmology

536
00:19:48,630 --> 00:19:46,960
and that the reactionary component of

537
00:19:49,990 --> 00:19:48,640
that and then secondly i think to

538
00:19:52,950 --> 00:19:50,000
misunderstand

539
00:19:53,270 --> 00:19:52,960
shermer and to suggest that shermer is

540
00:19:56,549 --> 00:19:53,280
an

541
00:19:58,470 --> 00:19:56,559
atheist in this kind of gnostic uh

542
00:19:59,830 --> 00:19:58,480
create better than the creator gods i

543
00:20:00,230 --> 00:19:59,840
don't think that's where he's coming

544
00:20:02,390 --> 00:20:00,240
from

545
00:20:04,549 --> 00:20:02,400
he's asserting that there's that there's

546
00:20:05,590 --> 00:20:04,559
he's okay as a biological robot in a

547
00:20:07,750 --> 00:20:05,600
meaningless universe

548
00:20:09,029 --> 00:20:07,760
who dies and then there's nothing he

549
00:20:11,750 --> 00:20:09,039
hasn't

550
00:20:13,350 --> 00:20:11,760
processed how absolutely ridiculous that

551
00:20:15,350 --> 00:20:13,360
is

552
00:20:16,710 --> 00:20:15,360
yeah i would say that he well first of

553
00:20:18,390 --> 00:20:16,720
all i like michael sherman let's

554
00:20:20,070 --> 00:20:18,400
get that out of the way too he's one of

555
00:20:20,710 --> 00:20:20,080
my favorite frenemies i always call him

556
00:20:22,549 --> 00:20:20,720
hey

557
00:20:25,029 --> 00:20:22,559
i've had him on a couple of times and

558
00:20:26,950 --> 00:20:25,039
always have good times good natured guy

559
00:20:28,390 --> 00:20:26,960
and he seems to love the film better

560
00:20:30,149 --> 00:20:28,400
left unsaid and

561
00:20:31,430 --> 00:20:30,159
that you know that puts him in the in

562
00:20:34,710 --> 00:20:31,440
the ranks for me

563
00:20:36,870 --> 00:20:34,720
okay with regard to what he says you

564
00:20:39,510 --> 00:20:36,880
have to also disentangle this is why

565
00:20:40,789 --> 00:20:39,520
part of the film is firstly an

566
00:20:41,830 --> 00:20:40,799
exposition as to what's happened in the

567
00:20:44,950 --> 00:20:41,840
past couple years

568
00:20:46,630 --> 00:20:44,960
than a historical analysis and then a

569
00:20:49,590 --> 00:20:46,640
psychological

570
00:20:50,549 --> 00:20:49,600
and almost well as you get deeply

571
00:20:53,350 --> 00:20:50,559
psychological

572
00:20:55,669 --> 00:20:53,360
it's difficult to not sound religious so

573
00:20:57,510 --> 00:20:55,679
it or let's say mythical

574
00:21:00,070 --> 00:20:57,520
then it gets psychological and mythical

575
00:21:03,830 --> 00:21:00,080
toward the end

576
00:21:06,710 --> 00:21:03,840
as for shermer as for people who say

577
00:21:07,350 --> 00:21:06,720
that it's meaningless i'm also skeptical

578
00:21:09,669 --> 00:21:07,360
that

579
00:21:11,350 --> 00:21:09,679
they don't underneath because there's a

580
00:21:13,270 --> 00:21:11,360
difference between professed beliefs and

581
00:21:15,510 --> 00:21:13,280
what they actually believe

582
00:21:17,270 --> 00:21:15,520
i'm skeptical that they don't actually

583
00:21:18,390 --> 00:21:17,280
believe that well they're humanists so

584
00:21:20,470 --> 00:21:18,400
that means that they believe that they

585
00:21:22,070 --> 00:21:20,480
can drive their own values

586
00:21:23,510 --> 00:21:22,080
well they they believe values are a

587
00:21:26,710 --> 00:21:23,520
social construct

588
00:21:28,789 --> 00:21:26,720
which doesn't require any of the again i

589
00:21:29,350 --> 00:21:28,799
think you come at this from a christian

590
00:21:32,230 --> 00:21:29,360
lens

591
00:21:33,990 --> 00:21:32,240
where you don't really accept the extent

592
00:21:34,630 --> 00:21:34,000
to which these people have bullshitted

593
00:21:36,310 --> 00:21:34,640
themselves

594
00:21:38,549 --> 00:21:36,320
into taking this absolutely

595
00:21:41,110 --> 00:21:38,559
philosophically absurd position

596
00:21:42,070 --> 00:21:41,120
that any culture throughout time would

597
00:21:43,830 --> 00:21:42,080
roll on the ground

598
00:21:45,510 --> 00:21:43,840
laughing with the idea that

599
00:21:47,510 --> 00:21:45,520
consciousness is an illusion that you

600
00:21:47,909 --> 00:21:47,520
don't exist and that you're not in there

601
00:21:50,950 --> 00:21:47,919
it's

602
00:21:53,190 --> 00:21:50,960
trying to kind of

603
00:21:55,029 --> 00:21:53,200
wrestle into something that makes sense

604
00:21:55,830 --> 00:21:55,039
rather than than just calling it for

605
00:21:58,230 --> 00:21:55,840
what it is

606
00:21:59,750 --> 00:21:58,240
and then the real question that falls

607
00:22:03,750 --> 00:21:59,760
out from me for that

608
00:22:06,549 --> 00:22:03,760
is how have they perpetuated

609
00:22:07,909 --> 00:22:06,559
such a silly silly idea and that's where

610
00:22:10,870 --> 00:22:07,919
you have to ask the question

611
00:22:12,070 --> 00:22:10,880
is there a social engineering uh

612
00:22:14,950 --> 00:22:12,080
motivation behind

613
00:22:15,590 --> 00:22:14,960
it when you say that i'm coming at it

614
00:22:17,669 --> 00:22:15,600
from a

615
00:22:19,590 --> 00:22:17,679
christian lens what are you referring to

616
00:22:22,390 --> 00:22:19,600
because i don't consider myself

617
00:22:23,190 --> 00:22:22,400
necessarily to be christian or because

618
00:22:27,909 --> 00:22:23,200
when you say

619
00:22:31,029 --> 00:22:27,919
gotta believe

620
00:22:31,750 --> 00:22:31,039
that shermer can't really believe what

621
00:22:34,470 --> 00:22:31,760
he's saying

622
00:22:34,950 --> 00:22:34,480
i get you i'm saying that differently

623
00:22:38,549 --> 00:22:34,960
though

624
00:22:41,990 --> 00:22:38,559
i'm saying no he has bullshitted himself

625
00:22:43,350 --> 00:22:42,000
as the other atheist have into really

626
00:22:46,710 --> 00:22:43,360
believing

627
00:22:48,789 --> 00:22:46,720
that life is meaningless that the world

628
00:22:50,390 --> 00:22:48,799
that the universe is meaningless and

629
00:22:52,789 --> 00:22:50,400
that life is meaningless

630
00:22:53,990 --> 00:22:52,799
and they are now in a state where they

631
00:22:56,630 --> 00:22:54,000
really believe that

632
00:22:59,029 --> 00:22:56,640
they're not going to going to bed and

633
00:23:02,070 --> 00:22:59,039
tossing on their pillow with the idea of

634
00:23:06,710 --> 00:23:04,630
you and i can't can't quite get there

635
00:23:08,950 --> 00:23:06,720
because we can't even

636
00:23:09,750 --> 00:23:08,960
really wrap our heads around how someone

637
00:23:12,390 --> 00:23:09,760
could

638
00:23:14,149 --> 00:23:12,400
embrace such a silly idea but i'm

639
00:23:14,549 --> 00:23:14,159
suggesting that they really have there's

640
00:23:21,990 --> 00:23:14,559
no

641
00:23:25,110 --> 00:23:22,000
values

642
00:23:26,870 --> 00:23:25,120
because they move

643
00:23:28,390 --> 00:23:26,880
so they value something above sitting

644
00:23:30,149 --> 00:23:28,400
still

645
00:23:31,669 --> 00:23:30,159
and they value something above not

646
00:23:33,430 --> 00:23:31,679
talking if they talk

647
00:23:36,870 --> 00:23:33,440
so just by their actions they convey

648
00:23:39,190 --> 00:23:36,880
their values and again i

649
00:23:40,470 --> 00:23:39,200
i just think you you go back and talk to

650
00:23:43,190 --> 00:23:40,480
shermer and ask him

651
00:23:44,710 --> 00:23:43,200
and see what his answer is but what i've

652
00:23:46,310 --> 00:23:44,720
done with shurmur is you can ask him if

653
00:23:48,070 --> 00:23:46,320
you value science do you value truth and

654
00:23:51,190 --> 00:23:48,080
he might say yes

655
00:23:52,470 --> 00:23:51,200
he he values it as a social

656
00:23:53,590 --> 00:23:52,480
construct that's fine that's fine you

657
00:23:54,789 --> 00:23:53,600
can say he values it as social

658
00:23:57,110 --> 00:23:54,799
constructs he still thinks i don't think

659
00:24:00,149 --> 00:23:57,120
it's fine at all i think it completely

660
00:24:03,269 --> 00:24:00,159
it completely skates the issue the issue

661
00:24:06,310 --> 00:24:03,279
is as you've put your finger on i think

662
00:24:08,549 --> 00:24:06,320
is there a moral imperative

663
00:24:09,990 --> 00:24:08,559
that the question is who are we why are

664
00:24:11,909 --> 00:24:10,000
we here

665
00:24:14,710 --> 00:24:11,919
and the the the question that falls out

666
00:24:17,269 --> 00:24:14,720
of that is is there a moral imperative

667
00:24:19,190 --> 00:24:17,279
is there a good is there an evil what

668
00:24:19,590 --> 00:24:19,200
shermer will say and what they all say

669
00:24:21,430 --> 00:24:19,600
is

670
00:24:23,350 --> 00:24:21,440
well that's really a moral that's really

671
00:24:27,190 --> 00:24:23,360
a social construct there isn't

672
00:24:29,269 --> 00:24:27,200
any real objective good or bad

673
00:24:30,630 --> 00:24:29,279
and you would i say would i say well of

674
00:24:32,310 --> 00:24:30,640
course there is

675
00:24:34,390 --> 00:24:32,320
from the time that we're a little kid

676
00:24:37,269 --> 00:24:34,400
and we stole candy from the candy store

677
00:24:39,430 --> 00:24:37,279
we knew it wasn't the right thing to do

678
00:24:41,110 --> 00:24:39,440
and we knew it as more than a social

679
00:24:44,070 --> 00:24:41,120
cons contract

680
00:24:45,350 --> 00:24:44,080
it was just something that wasn't right

681
00:24:47,590 --> 00:24:45,360
at a higher level

682
00:24:50,710 --> 00:24:47,600
that we didn't really understand but

683
00:24:51,990 --> 00:24:50,720
intuitively we got it

684
00:24:53,669 --> 00:24:52,000
i don't see what you're saying is

685
00:24:53,990 --> 00:24:53,679
contradicting what i've said so there's

686
00:24:55,350 --> 00:24:54,000
two

687
00:24:57,350 --> 00:24:55,360
sources of values or at least in

688
00:25:00,470 --> 00:24:57,360
jacobi's formulation that

689
00:25:01,269 --> 00:25:00,480
is either objective or external which is

690
00:25:04,630 --> 00:25:01,279
god or

691
00:25:06,230 --> 00:25:04,640
it is you it is man even if man says

692
00:25:07,590 --> 00:25:06,240
it's socially constructed that's still

693
00:25:09,510 --> 00:25:07,600
man creating it that's almost by

694
00:25:13,029 --> 00:25:09,520
definition man creating it

695
00:25:15,190 --> 00:25:13,039
so that's in line with what i was saying

696
00:25:16,470 --> 00:25:15,200
no i don't think we're in disagreement

697
00:25:19,350 --> 00:25:16,480
well

698
00:25:20,710 --> 00:25:19,360
again i think tell me you disagree that

699
00:25:23,430 --> 00:25:20,720
i agree

700
00:25:23,990 --> 00:25:23,440
well the part that i disagree with is

701
00:25:28,390 --> 00:25:24,000
that

702
00:25:31,590 --> 00:25:28,400
man is the same man

703
00:25:33,029 --> 00:25:31,600
is you can what they've done here the

704
00:25:36,149 --> 00:25:33,039
sleight of hand

705
00:25:40,230 --> 00:25:36,159
is to suggest that that they can

706
00:25:43,750 --> 00:25:40,240
live with consciousness is an illusion

707
00:25:46,630 --> 00:25:43,760
and then we can still talk about man and

708
00:25:48,549 --> 00:25:46,640
not being gender specific but they are

709
00:25:51,590 --> 00:25:48,559
when they say man they are really

710
00:25:55,029 --> 00:25:51,600
alluding to consciousness

711
00:25:57,269 --> 00:25:55,039
to a self of a sense of who you are

712
00:25:58,470 --> 00:25:57,279
in yourself so their inherent

713
00:26:00,549 --> 00:25:58,480
contradiction

714
00:26:02,710 --> 00:26:00,559
that we have to get to the bottom of if

715
00:26:04,950 --> 00:26:02,720
we're going to make any sense of this

716
00:26:05,830 --> 00:26:04,960
is that they are self-contradicting

717
00:26:07,669 --> 00:26:05,840
themselves

718
00:26:10,310 --> 00:26:07,679
when they say that there's a social

719
00:26:12,310 --> 00:26:10,320
construct created by man

720
00:26:14,070 --> 00:26:12,320
there is no man if consciousness is an

721
00:26:18,870 --> 00:26:14,080
illusion

722
00:26:22,070 --> 00:26:18,880
just so you know i've never

723
00:26:23,750 --> 00:26:22,080
understood exactly what that means

724
00:26:25,669 --> 00:26:23,760
for example dennit i think is a

725
00:26:27,269 --> 00:26:25,679
proponent of the illusory nature of

726
00:26:29,190 --> 00:26:27,279
consciousness and i read his book

727
00:26:30,630 --> 00:26:29,200
i read at least one of his books maybe

728
00:26:32,310 --> 00:26:30,640
two or three

729
00:26:33,669 --> 00:26:32,320
and i think darwin's dangerous idea is

730
00:26:37,029 --> 00:26:33,679
another one but

731
00:26:38,230 --> 00:26:37,039
i don't quite i don't understand what it

732
00:26:38,870 --> 00:26:38,240
means for consciousness to be an

733
00:26:43,029 --> 00:26:38,880
illusion

734
00:26:45,830 --> 00:26:43,039
so i don't i can't argue

735
00:26:47,430 --> 00:26:45,840
that that view is in contradiction or in

736
00:26:48,630 --> 00:26:47,440
coherence with something else else

737
00:26:49,430 --> 00:26:48,640
because i don't actually understand what

738
00:26:50,070 --> 00:26:49,440
it means

739
00:26:52,549 --> 00:26:50,080
but hold on hold on hold on hold on hold

740
00:26:56,070 --> 00:26:54,470
we have to be able to process that

741
00:26:57,510 --> 00:26:56,080
because that's what the whole thing is

742
00:27:01,190 --> 00:26:57,520
built on

743
00:27:04,230 --> 00:27:01,200
consciousness is an

744
00:27:07,310 --> 00:27:04,240
epiphenomenon of the brain

745
00:27:08,870 --> 00:27:07,320
that there is no you in there now

746
00:27:11,510 --> 00:27:08,880
philosophically

747
00:27:13,510 --> 00:27:11,520
that requires a miracle because the only

748
00:27:15,750 --> 00:27:13,520
thing you can know philosophically

749
00:27:17,269 --> 00:27:15,760
is that you are in there i don't know if

750
00:27:18,710 --> 00:27:17,279
you're in there i don't know if you're

751
00:27:21,909 --> 00:27:18,720
a.i

752
00:27:24,149 --> 00:27:21,919
but i know i'm in here so what the

753
00:27:26,549 --> 00:27:24,159
sleight of hand that they've done

754
00:27:28,870 --> 00:27:26,559
with dan dennett and i always play neil

755
00:27:32,230 --> 00:27:28,880
degrasse tyson because he's the kind of

756
00:27:35,350 --> 00:27:32,240
one of the modern mountains

757
00:27:37,269 --> 00:27:35,360
and you can hear him directly say i'll

758
00:27:38,789 --> 00:27:37,279
play the quote but i've played it 500

759
00:27:40,149 --> 00:27:38,799
times on this show

760
00:27:41,430 --> 00:27:40,159
you know i think when we get to the

761
00:27:43,430 --> 00:27:41,440
bottom of it we'll find out that

762
00:27:45,110 --> 00:27:43,440
consciousness is nothing

763
00:27:46,710 --> 00:27:45,120
so they're all saying the same thing and

764
00:27:48,470 --> 00:27:46,720
sherbert is saying the same thing i

765
00:27:49,909 --> 00:27:48,480
talked to sherm about near-death

766
00:27:52,310 --> 00:27:49,919
experience because the good thing about

767
00:27:55,029 --> 00:27:52,320
near-death experience science

768
00:27:57,430 --> 00:27:55,039
is it puts to bed once and for all the

769
00:27:59,430 --> 00:27:57,440
question of consciousness

770
00:28:01,510 --> 00:27:59,440
because consciousness is proven to

771
00:28:04,310 --> 00:28:01,520
survive bodily death

772
00:28:05,830 --> 00:28:04,320
so now we can't really lean on the idea

773
00:28:07,350 --> 00:28:05,840
that's an epic phenomenon of the brain

774
00:28:09,430 --> 00:28:07,360
because the brain is gone

775
00:28:11,350 --> 00:28:09,440
but this again i mean i'm hammering on

776
00:28:13,110 --> 00:28:11,360
this but it is the fundamental issue

777
00:28:16,230 --> 00:28:13,120
that there's

778
00:28:17,590 --> 00:28:16,240
it's the fundamental misstep that the

779
00:28:21,510 --> 00:28:17,600
whole left has built

780
00:28:24,389 --> 00:28:21,520
its whole house on this foundation that

781
00:28:26,070 --> 00:28:24,399
is is completely wrong okay when it

782
00:28:28,149 --> 00:28:26,080
comes to near-death experiences because

783
00:28:30,149 --> 00:28:28,159
i haven't studied it

784
00:28:32,149 --> 00:28:30,159
when someone sees what do they see do

785
00:28:33,669 --> 00:28:32,159
they see themselves after they die or do

786
00:28:35,990 --> 00:28:33,679
they see other people and do those

787
00:28:37,510 --> 00:28:36,000
other people retain their personality

788
00:28:39,269 --> 00:28:37,520
the same

789
00:28:41,430 --> 00:28:39,279
relationships and proclivities that they

790
00:28:43,110 --> 00:28:41,440
had when they were alive or is it just

791
00:28:44,549 --> 00:28:43,120
you see them as an entity or you feel

792
00:28:47,590 --> 00:28:44,559
them you feel they're conscious like

793
00:28:49,750 --> 00:28:47,600
what is it exactly well there's all

794
00:28:51,269 --> 00:28:49,760
sorts of different experiences that

795
00:28:53,430 --> 00:28:51,279
people have

796
00:28:55,430 --> 00:28:53,440
and a lot of folks have spent a great

797
00:28:58,630 --> 00:28:55,440
deal of time trying to understand them

798
00:28:59,590 --> 00:28:58,640
and categorize them in a scientific way

799
00:29:02,630 --> 00:28:59,600
which is

800
00:29:03,269 --> 00:29:02,640
useful but is limited it's limited

801
00:29:06,710 --> 00:29:03,279
because we

802
00:29:09,909 --> 00:29:06,720
don't really have a way of understanding

803
00:29:12,070 --> 00:29:09,919
what consciousness would mean if it

804
00:29:15,029 --> 00:29:12,080
extends beyond bodily death

805
00:29:16,230 --> 00:29:15,039
because back to our scientific and

806
00:29:19,110 --> 00:29:16,240
philosophical

807
00:29:20,950 --> 00:29:19,120
implications let's stick to scientific

808
00:29:22,950 --> 00:29:20,960
the fundamental question

809
00:29:24,830 --> 00:29:22,960
in science for as long as we've looked

810
00:29:27,909 --> 00:29:24,840
at the double slit experiment

811
00:29:31,990 --> 00:29:27,919
is is consciousness somehow

812
00:29:33,909 --> 00:29:32,000
fundamental so is matter not fundamental

813
00:29:35,110 --> 00:29:33,919
consciousness is fundamental if

814
00:29:37,269 --> 00:29:35,120
everything is

815
00:29:38,549 --> 00:29:37,279
out of consciousness then we have kind

816
00:29:40,470 --> 00:29:38,559
of a different thing where we can't

817
00:29:41,669 --> 00:29:40,480
really even talk about any of these

818
00:29:44,149 --> 00:29:41,679
things very clearly

819
00:29:46,549 --> 00:29:44,159
but to answer your question the most

820
00:29:48,710 --> 00:29:46,559
important thing that comes out of the

821
00:29:49,750 --> 00:29:48,720
near-death experience science in my

822
00:29:52,830 --> 00:29:49,760
opinion

823
00:29:55,909 --> 00:29:52,840
is just this point that clearly the

824
00:29:58,950 --> 00:29:55,919
neurological model of consciousness

825
00:30:00,230 --> 00:29:58,960
has been falsified because for the last

826
00:30:03,350 --> 00:30:00,240
60 years

827
00:30:05,669 --> 00:30:03,360
we have good science if you will on what

828
00:30:09,510 --> 00:30:05,679
it takes for a brain to generate

829
00:30:12,149 --> 00:30:09,520
consciousness we have eegs we have fmris

830
00:30:14,389 --> 00:30:12,159
on animals and in people and under all

831
00:30:16,710 --> 00:30:14,399
different sorts of conditions

832
00:30:17,990 --> 00:30:16,720
so we know that the condition that the

833
00:30:20,070 --> 00:30:18,000
brain is in

834
00:30:21,990 --> 00:30:20,080
when someone has been pronounced

835
00:30:23,990 --> 00:30:22,000
clinically dead in a hospital for

836
00:30:25,350 --> 00:30:24,000
three or four minutes before the

837
00:30:27,990 --> 00:30:25,360
resuscitated

838
00:30:28,630 --> 00:30:28,000
we know that neurological state should

839
00:30:31,990 --> 00:30:28,640
not be

840
00:30:34,230 --> 00:30:32,000
able to generate consciousness

841
00:30:36,389 --> 00:30:34,240
so when someone is resuscitated from

842
00:30:39,269 --> 00:30:36,399
that and is able to recount

843
00:30:40,149 --> 00:30:39,279
in great detail their resuscitation

844
00:30:41,830 --> 00:30:40,159
process

845
00:30:43,190 --> 00:30:41,840
you know yeah the guy wheeled me in and

846
00:30:43,990 --> 00:30:43,200
they tried the paddles and that didn't

847
00:30:45,269 --> 00:30:44,000
work so

848
00:30:47,110 --> 00:30:45,279
you know somebody else jumped on me and

849
00:30:50,549 --> 00:30:47,120
then a nurse came in again

850
00:30:52,630 --> 00:30:50,559
when they're able to again in controlled

851
00:30:54,630 --> 00:30:52,640
peer-reviewed studies

852
00:30:56,310 --> 00:30:54,640
they're able to give that information

853
00:30:57,430 --> 00:30:56,320
and people who didn't have a near-death

854
00:30:59,269 --> 00:30:57,440
experience

855
00:31:01,350 --> 00:30:59,279
but also had cardiac arrest when they're

856
00:31:03,190 --> 00:31:01,360
not there's your control group

857
00:31:05,110 --> 00:31:03,200
those kind of studies are highly

858
00:31:06,310 --> 00:31:05,120
suggestive of the idea that

859
00:31:09,110 --> 00:31:06,320
consciousness

860
00:31:09,909 --> 00:31:09,120
survives bodily death and that

861
00:31:13,590 --> 00:31:09,919
consciousness

862
00:31:16,710 --> 00:31:13,600
is not an illusion and it's really game

863
00:31:20,070 --> 00:31:16,720
over not just for shermer

864
00:31:23,509 --> 00:31:20,080
but for dawkins for dennett for

865
00:31:26,389 --> 00:31:23,519
all the atheists in academia

866
00:31:28,630 --> 00:31:26,399
they have to reboot everything and they

867
00:31:30,710 --> 00:31:28,640
are no way prepared to do that

868
00:31:32,070 --> 00:31:30,720
but the whole thing in better left

869
00:31:35,430 --> 00:31:32,080
unsaid in the extreme

870
00:31:38,950 --> 00:31:35,440
radical left hey man we're with you

871
00:31:41,830 --> 00:31:38,960
100 on the problem with microaggression

872
00:31:43,269 --> 00:31:41,840
and post-modernism but i trace it all

873
00:31:45,909 --> 00:31:43,279
back to

874
00:31:48,549 --> 00:31:45,919
the consciousness is an illusion

875
00:31:50,630 --> 00:31:48,559
foundation that it's built on

876
00:31:51,909 --> 00:31:50,640
yeah that that's an interesting way of

877
00:31:54,070 --> 00:31:51,919
tying it i didn't

878
00:31:54,950 --> 00:31:54,080
well when you think about this if you

879
00:31:56,230 --> 00:31:54,960
were to

880
00:31:58,070 --> 00:31:56,240
randomly sample some people and they

881
00:32:00,070 --> 00:31:58,080
said consciousness is an illusion versus

882
00:32:02,549 --> 00:32:00,080
consciousness is not it's fundamental or

883
00:32:04,549 --> 00:32:02,559
that i have a spirit or a soul i think

884
00:32:06,710 --> 00:32:04,559
there would be a

885
00:32:08,310 --> 00:32:06,720
a moderate correlation between the right

886
00:32:11,509 --> 00:32:08,320
which would say

887
00:32:13,669 --> 00:32:11,519
that i exist in some

888
00:32:14,870 --> 00:32:13,679
non-corporeal form and then the left

889
00:32:17,509 --> 00:32:14,880
that would say no that's

890
00:32:18,070 --> 00:32:17,519
it's it's identical to the physical

891
00:32:20,070 --> 00:32:18,080
matter

892
00:32:21,750 --> 00:32:20,080
or in some way emergent from it so

893
00:32:23,909 --> 00:32:21,760
that's an interesting

894
00:32:24,950 --> 00:32:23,919
angle i need to explore that some more

895
00:32:27,110 --> 00:32:24,960
it sounds like

896
00:32:28,389 --> 00:32:27,120
what you're saying is given these

897
00:32:29,750 --> 00:32:28,399
near-death experiences

898
00:32:31,269 --> 00:32:29,760
and there are other experiences that i'm

899
00:32:32,710 --> 00:32:31,279
sure you can reference but let's just

900
00:32:35,750 --> 00:32:32,720
talk about near death

901
00:32:37,509 --> 00:32:35,760
given that and the brain has

902
00:32:39,669 --> 00:32:37,519
zero neurological activity as far as we

903
00:32:41,269 --> 00:32:39,679
can measure but also keep in mind that

904
00:32:44,630 --> 00:32:41,279
the measurement of neurological activity

905
00:32:46,950 --> 00:32:44,640
isn't high high enough resolution to

906
00:32:48,950 --> 00:32:46,960
ever determine that there is zero

907
00:32:51,269 --> 00:32:48,960
activity

908
00:32:52,230 --> 00:32:51,279
for sure just at our resolution there's

909
00:32:54,149 --> 00:32:52,240
zero activity

910
00:32:55,669 --> 00:32:54,159
just like with a camera you don't you

911
00:32:59,269 --> 00:32:55,679
don't have infinite

912
00:33:06,230 --> 00:32:59,279
resolution okay despite that let's

913
00:33:10,070 --> 00:33:08,950
that implies that consciousness while

914
00:33:11,430 --> 00:33:10,080
associate that's why

915
00:33:12,710 --> 00:33:11,440
i would make the distinction i would say

916
00:33:14,710 --> 00:33:12,720
it's associated with the brain but not

917
00:33:16,310 --> 00:33:14,720
necessarily dependent on

918
00:33:17,669 --> 00:33:16,320
the brain and the reason why i would

919
00:33:18,389 --> 00:33:17,679
make that distinction is because when

920
00:33:20,070 --> 00:33:18,399
someone says

921
00:33:22,710 --> 00:33:20,080
that consciousness is independent of the

922
00:33:24,870 --> 00:33:22,720
brain well then why is it that a lesion

923
00:33:25,750 --> 00:33:24,880
would make you more impulsive or rash or

924
00:33:28,789 --> 00:33:25,760
emotional

925
00:33:30,470 --> 00:33:28,799
or or artistic when you weren't so there

926
00:33:32,389 --> 00:33:30,480
seems to be an association

927
00:33:33,590 --> 00:33:32,399
there doesn't seem to be an equivalence

928
00:33:35,509 --> 00:33:33,600
which is what dennett

929
00:33:37,750 --> 00:33:35,519
would say and by the way here's

930
00:33:40,149 --> 00:33:37,760
something interesting and an equivalence

931
00:33:41,430 --> 00:33:40,159
in mathematics it goes that means you

932
00:33:42,630 --> 00:33:41,440
have an implication arrow in both

933
00:33:45,269 --> 00:33:42,640
directions which means

934
00:33:46,789 --> 00:33:45,279
if consciousness is the same the same as

935
00:33:48,470 --> 00:33:46,799
a brain state

936
00:33:50,789 --> 00:33:48,480
then that means you can replace brain

937
00:33:52,630 --> 00:33:50,799
states with the word consciousness

938
00:33:53,909 --> 00:33:52,640
so when dennis says that while your

939
00:33:55,029 --> 00:33:53,919
brain states are equivalent i don't i

940
00:33:57,350 --> 00:33:55,039
don't know enough man

941
00:33:58,630 --> 00:33:57,360
then it like i guess like i said when it

942
00:33:59,990 --> 00:33:58,640
comes to the illusory nature of

943
00:34:02,470 --> 00:34:00,000
consciousness i don't have a

944
00:34:04,870 --> 00:34:02,480
handle on the theories enough to

945
00:34:07,269 --> 00:34:04,880
articulate them back to the people who

946
00:34:08,869 --> 00:34:07,279
are exponents of them in a manner that

947
00:34:10,550 --> 00:34:08,879
they would agree so i can't say that

948
00:34:11,909 --> 00:34:10,560
i understand their theories enough i

949
00:34:13,430 --> 00:34:11,919
know that there's something of dennis

950
00:34:15,669 --> 00:34:13,440
that i still need to read into called

951
00:34:16,950 --> 00:34:15,679
quinine qualia and it seems interesting

952
00:34:18,550 --> 00:34:16,960
because apparently

953
00:34:20,149 --> 00:34:18,560
it would explain why is it that we see

954
00:34:21,829 --> 00:34:20,159
red when we look

955
00:34:24,069 --> 00:34:21,839
why is it the red has the color red and

956
00:34:26,790 --> 00:34:24,079
blue the color blue and hunger the

957
00:34:28,310 --> 00:34:26,800
feeling of hunger and so on okay let's

958
00:34:30,310 --> 00:34:28,320
get back i'm gonna wrap up quick

959
00:34:32,869 --> 00:34:30,320
so here's a question about that why do

960
00:34:34,790 --> 00:34:32,879
you think that someone who's extremely

961
00:34:37,109 --> 00:34:34,800
bright now dennit is extremely

962
00:34:38,389 --> 00:34:37,119
bright dawkins is extremely bright

963
00:34:38,950 --> 00:34:38,399
shermer you know he's not some no i'm

964
00:34:43,190 --> 00:34:38,960
just kidding

965
00:34:46,550 --> 00:34:43,200
but you get the idea why is it that they

966
00:34:49,750 --> 00:34:46,560
believe what they believe you mentioned

967
00:34:52,550 --> 00:34:49,760
conspiracy so i'm curious to know

968
00:34:53,430 --> 00:34:52,560
is it something that they are willfully

969
00:34:55,270 --> 00:34:53,440
going against

970
00:34:57,270 --> 00:34:55,280
like i referenced with hildegard to

971
00:35:00,069 --> 00:34:57,280
bingham that i want to be master

972
00:35:00,630 --> 00:35:00,079
or is it something else that much like

973
00:35:03,430 --> 00:35:00,640
if you're

974
00:35:04,550 --> 00:35:03,440
a christian or a muslim or a buddhist

975
00:35:06,150 --> 00:35:04,560
you grew up that way you were just

976
00:35:06,790 --> 00:35:06,160
taught that way by society and so you

977
00:35:08,069 --> 00:35:06,800
believe it

978
00:35:09,510 --> 00:35:08,079
is there something else that they were

979
00:35:11,190 --> 00:35:09,520
taught that they believe or did they

980
00:35:13,270 --> 00:35:11,200
come to some conclusion are they

981
00:35:14,950 --> 00:35:13,280
evil in some way are they resistant in

982
00:35:16,310 --> 00:35:14,960
some way what is their motivation for

983
00:35:18,470 --> 00:35:16,320
believing what they believe i don't know

984
00:35:20,470 --> 00:35:18,480
and i'm curious to know what you think

985
00:35:22,550 --> 00:35:20,480
well i think it's a really it's a really

986
00:35:24,550 --> 00:35:22,560
deep question and i think it requires

987
00:35:27,829 --> 00:35:24,560
kind of a multifaceted

988
00:35:28,390 --> 00:35:27,839
answer one part of it i think that i

989
00:35:31,270 --> 00:35:28,400
mentioned

990
00:35:33,030 --> 00:35:31,280
was the reactionary part and that's the

991
00:35:35,470 --> 00:35:33,040
part where i think

992
00:35:37,750 --> 00:35:35,480
we really have to square up

993
00:35:41,270 --> 00:35:37,760
christianity's

994
00:35:43,030 --> 00:35:41,280
being complicit now explain to me

995
00:35:44,710 --> 00:35:43,040
what you mean when you say that because

996
00:35:46,390 --> 00:35:44,720
it sounds like much of your view is

997
00:35:47,270 --> 00:35:46,400
already christian but then at the same

998
00:35:48,790 --> 00:35:47,280
time you say

999
00:35:50,390 --> 00:35:48,800
that you dislike christianity now are

1000
00:35:51,510 --> 00:35:50,400
you referring to institutionalized

1001
00:35:53,829 --> 00:35:51,520
christianity

1002
00:35:54,790 --> 00:35:53,839
because that's a difference really no

1003
00:35:56,390 --> 00:35:54,800
other kind

1004
00:35:58,390 --> 00:35:56,400
you know whenever i talk to uh

1005
00:36:00,150 --> 00:35:58,400
christians okay let me let me

1006
00:36:02,069 --> 00:36:00,160
let me interrupt right here because

1007
00:36:02,710 --> 00:36:02,079
that's a mistake that's a huge mistake

1008
00:36:06,150 --> 00:36:02,720
there's chris

1009
00:36:07,990 --> 00:36:06,160
anarchists like tolstoy there's

1010
00:36:11,670 --> 00:36:08,000
kierkegaard

1011
00:36:14,550 --> 00:36:11,680
individualistic one of my favorites yeah

1012
00:36:15,910 --> 00:36:14,560
and kierkegaard also said that well we

1013
00:36:18,950 --> 00:36:15,920
can talk about kierkegaard after

1014
00:36:20,390 --> 00:36:18,960
so so it's not true that there's no

1015
00:36:21,750 --> 00:36:20,400
christianity outside what's

1016
00:36:25,430 --> 00:36:21,760
institutionalized

1017
00:36:32,550 --> 00:36:29,670
i have folks this is classic skeptico

1018
00:36:33,829 --> 00:36:32,560
inquiry to perpetuate doubt if you're

1019
00:36:37,750 --> 00:36:33,839
new to this

1020
00:36:40,870 --> 00:36:37,760
let me tell you kurt is a next level

1021
00:36:43,349 --> 00:36:40,880
thinker super smart check out

1022
00:36:44,870 --> 00:36:43,359
his website check out his uh his youtube

1023
00:36:46,790 --> 00:36:44,880
channel his fantastic

1024
00:36:48,230 --> 00:36:46,800
interviews they're captivating

1025
00:36:50,630 --> 00:36:48,240
spellbinding

1026
00:36:52,550 --> 00:36:50,640
and and and they're great and his movie

1027
00:36:55,589 --> 00:36:52,560
this one and the other ones are terrific

1028
00:36:56,390 --> 00:36:55,599
so i want to pursue this dialogue that

1029
00:36:58,230 --> 00:36:56,400
we're having

1030
00:36:59,670 --> 00:36:58,240
but i don't want people to get the wrong

1031
00:37:02,950 --> 00:36:59,680
impression i'm

1032
00:37:06,150 --> 00:37:02,960
sitting here learning from kurt by

1033
00:37:06,550 --> 00:37:06,160
pushing him and hopefully he's pushing

1034
00:37:09,430 --> 00:37:06,560
me

1035
00:37:09,910 --> 00:37:09,440
so that's what this dialogue is about

1036
00:37:12,150 --> 00:37:09,920
but

1037
00:37:13,030 --> 00:37:12,160
you know returning to the question or

1038
00:37:15,670 --> 00:37:13,040
the topic

1039
00:37:17,589 --> 00:37:15,680
that we're talking about in terms of

1040
00:37:19,270 --> 00:37:17,599
christianity

1041
00:37:21,190 --> 00:37:19,280
whenever i talk to people who are

1042
00:37:22,390 --> 00:37:21,200
christians one thing i always start with

1043
00:37:25,829 --> 00:37:22,400
is to say

1044
00:37:29,349 --> 00:37:25,839
i have come to accept that

1045
00:37:31,270 --> 00:37:29,359
christ consciousness is real

1046
00:37:32,390 --> 00:37:31,280
and a lot of times the reaction i get

1047
00:37:34,230 --> 00:37:32,400
from christians

1048
00:37:35,750 --> 00:37:34,240
is a very negative one they go what do

1049
00:37:37,430 --> 00:37:35,760
you mean christ consciousness

1050
00:37:39,670 --> 00:37:37,440
you know that's some kind of gnostic

1051
00:37:42,390 --> 00:37:39,680
[\h__\h] that you're trying to pass off

1052
00:37:43,829 --> 00:37:42,400
and what i say is no i'm talking about

1053
00:37:47,030 --> 00:37:43,839
it quite literally

1054
00:37:49,430 --> 00:37:47,040
when i interview uh someone

1055
00:37:50,310 --> 00:37:49,440
who has had like i have several people

1056
00:37:52,630 --> 00:37:50,320
who are

1057
00:37:54,069 --> 00:37:52,640
had a near-death experience and have

1058
00:37:57,510 --> 00:37:54,079
encountered jesus

1059
00:38:00,630 --> 00:37:57,520
who they understand to be jesus christ

1060
00:38:02,470 --> 00:38:00,640
i have to pause and say i accept

1061
00:38:04,069 --> 00:38:02,480
that you entered an extended

1062
00:38:05,030 --> 00:38:04,079
consciousness realm that we can't

1063
00:38:07,430 --> 00:38:05,040
explain

1064
00:38:09,190 --> 00:38:07,440
again because the medical neurological

1065
00:38:11,589 --> 00:38:09,200
data doesn't allow us to go there

1066
00:38:13,510 --> 00:38:11,599
and we can't introduce some promissory

1067
00:38:15,829 --> 00:38:13,520
some way in the future though

1068
00:38:17,270 --> 00:38:15,839
no everything we know says that the

1069
00:38:20,470 --> 00:38:17,280
neurological data isn't there to

1070
00:38:22,470 --> 00:38:20,480
support that i'm now willing to support

1071
00:38:23,589 --> 00:38:22,480
or be open to what you're saying about

1072
00:38:25,589 --> 00:38:23,599
your experience

1073
00:38:27,030 --> 00:38:25,599
but you have to be open to the fact that

1074
00:38:29,270 --> 00:38:27,040
you didn't experience

1075
00:38:30,390 --> 00:38:29,280
jesus per se and i didn't you

1076
00:38:33,670 --> 00:38:30,400
experienced

1077
00:38:35,270 --> 00:38:33,680
a consciousness connection with jesus

1078
00:38:37,430 --> 00:38:35,280
at that level neither one of us know

1079
00:38:38,230 --> 00:38:37,440
what that is i'm gonna call that christ

1080
00:38:40,390 --> 00:38:38,240
consciousness

1081
00:38:41,910 --> 00:38:40,400
for lack of a better term i don't know

1082
00:38:43,750 --> 00:38:41,920
why christians sometimes have a hard

1083
00:38:45,430 --> 00:38:43,760
time with that but i'll accept that and

1084
00:38:49,510 --> 00:38:45,440
i'll bracket that and say

1085
00:38:52,790 --> 00:38:49,520
i believe not just that i accept it

1086
00:38:55,190 --> 00:38:52,800
i believe that to be evidential because

1087
00:38:57,829 --> 00:38:55,200
it's come up too many times

1088
00:38:58,790 --> 00:38:57,839
from too many different people across

1089
00:39:01,829 --> 00:38:58,800
culture

1090
00:39:02,710 --> 00:39:01,839
and across time which are the usual ways

1091
00:39:05,910 --> 00:39:02,720
we'd look at

1092
00:39:09,190 --> 00:39:05,920
verifying that kind of data but

1093
00:39:12,550 --> 00:39:09,200
i suggest to you kurt that

1094
00:39:16,310 --> 00:39:12,560
that we need a disintermediation

1095
00:39:18,790 --> 00:39:16,320
process here you can access that chris j

1096
00:39:20,150 --> 00:39:18,800
that christ consciousness with throwing

1097
00:39:22,150 --> 00:39:20,160
your bible out the window

1098
00:39:24,310 --> 00:39:22,160
you don't need your freaking bible you

1099
00:39:27,750 --> 00:39:24,320
don't need kierken guard you don't need

1100
00:39:30,790 --> 00:39:27,760
any of those people you can directly

1101
00:39:32,950 --> 00:39:30,800
access that consciousness again that

1102
00:39:35,109 --> 00:39:32,960
seems to be the data as it comes back

1103
00:39:38,390 --> 00:39:35,119
and not just christ consciousness

1104
00:39:40,310 --> 00:39:38,400
buddha consciousness uh uh

1105
00:39:41,430 --> 00:39:40,320
every all the day i could list all the

1106
00:39:44,069 --> 00:39:41,440
different ones but

1107
00:39:44,870 --> 00:39:44,079
you get the idea so that's how i read

1108
00:39:46,349 --> 00:39:44,880
the data

1109
00:39:48,310 --> 00:39:46,359
is that we need a serious

1110
00:39:49,470 --> 00:39:48,320
disintermediation that christianity

1111
00:39:52,150 --> 00:39:49,480
doesn't allow

1112
00:39:54,230 --> 00:39:52,160
christianity by design puts itself in

1113
00:39:57,270 --> 00:39:54,240
the middle and says i will mediate

1114
00:40:00,150 --> 00:39:57,280
your interaction with that

1115
00:40:01,510 --> 00:40:00,160
hierarchy of consciousness that is god

1116
00:40:02,710 --> 00:40:01,520
okay

1117
00:40:04,790 --> 00:40:02,720
so let me see if i understand what

1118
00:40:07,349 --> 00:40:04,800
you're saying you're saying that

1119
00:40:08,150 --> 00:40:07,359
there are a variety of views that come

1120
00:40:09,829 --> 00:40:08,160
up when one

1121
00:40:11,349 --> 00:40:09,839
meditates or has near-death experiences

1122
00:40:12,390 --> 00:40:11,359
or altered state of states of

1123
00:40:15,750 --> 00:40:12,400
consciousness

1124
00:40:17,270 --> 00:40:15,760
and those are of a multiplicity of

1125
00:40:19,109 --> 00:40:17,280
religions and therefore

1126
00:40:20,710 --> 00:40:19,119
if christianity institut

1127
00:40:21,910 --> 00:40:20,720
institutionalized christianity would say

1128
00:40:25,109 --> 00:40:21,920
that

1129
00:40:30,150 --> 00:40:28,309
mechanet of egypt doesn't exist

1130
00:40:31,589 --> 00:40:30,160
buddha doesn't exist or buddha exists

1131
00:40:34,950 --> 00:40:31,599
but he's not a

1132
00:40:36,230 --> 00:40:34,960
saint of any sort or divine or divine in

1133
00:40:37,910 --> 00:40:36,240
any way

1134
00:40:39,589 --> 00:40:37,920
then christianity can't be correct is

1135
00:40:41,589 --> 00:40:39,599
that what you're saying is that

1136
00:40:43,430 --> 00:40:41,599
close to what you're saying this is kind

1137
00:40:46,470 --> 00:40:43,440
of turned into you interviewing me

1138
00:40:47,430 --> 00:40:46,480
which well like here i don't even know

1139
00:40:49,109 --> 00:40:47,440
why i'm being interviewed

1140
00:40:52,309 --> 00:40:49,119
by anyone because i feel like i know

1141
00:40:54,870 --> 00:40:52,319
almost nothing so i'm well i

1142
00:40:56,150 --> 00:40:54,880
i don't know i you've just produced a

1143
00:40:59,349 --> 00:40:56,160
fantastic movie

1144
00:40:59,670 --> 00:40:59,359
better left unsaid which is in a way we

1145
00:41:02,150 --> 00:40:59,680
are

1146
00:41:04,790 --> 00:41:02,160
kind of in sync here of like we said

1147
00:41:06,870 --> 00:41:04,800
initially about so many things

1148
00:41:08,710 --> 00:41:06,880
i just ended up interpreting it slightly

1149
00:41:13,990 --> 00:41:08,720
differently what better left

1150
00:41:16,230 --> 00:41:14,000
unsaid the way it speaks to me

1151
00:41:17,829 --> 00:41:16,240
is again i ca i hate using this word

1152
00:41:19,990 --> 00:41:17,839
absurdity because when you overuse a

1153
00:41:22,309 --> 00:41:20,000
word then people get all benefited sure

1154
00:41:23,990 --> 00:41:22,319
but there's you're just saying isn't

1155
00:41:27,030 --> 00:41:24,000
this ridiculous

1156
00:41:30,870 --> 00:41:27,040
isn't this exactly how can we

1157
00:41:33,430 --> 00:41:30,880
be trying to overcome racism

1158
00:41:34,150 --> 00:41:33,440
by being racist how does that make any

1159
00:41:36,710 --> 00:41:34,160
sense

1160
00:41:37,670 --> 00:41:36,720
how did we get here and then how do we

1161
00:41:39,349 --> 00:41:37,680
get out of there

1162
00:41:41,190 --> 00:41:39,359
as for how we get out of here that's

1163
00:41:43,190 --> 00:41:41,200
that's a tricky one man because

1164
00:41:44,230 --> 00:41:43,200
you have to want to get out of here okay

1165
00:41:45,829 --> 00:41:44,240
so

1166
00:41:47,270 --> 00:41:45,839
maybe the answer of how you get out of

1167
00:41:50,390 --> 00:41:47,280
here and how it started is

1168
00:41:51,510 --> 00:41:50,400
tied if you watch better left unsaid now

1169
00:41:52,950 --> 00:41:51,520
there are two versions i sent you the

1170
00:41:54,309 --> 00:41:52,960
public version

1171
00:41:56,309 --> 00:41:54,319
there's a director's version which is

1172
00:41:58,790 --> 00:41:56,319
about a half hour longer and it

1173
00:42:00,390 --> 00:41:58,800
is much more philosophically and

1174
00:42:01,430 --> 00:42:00,400
psychologically oriented so i'll send

1175
00:42:01,990 --> 00:42:01,440
you that one because you can just watch

1176
00:42:04,630 --> 00:42:02,000
the last

1177
00:42:05,270 --> 00:42:04,640
part it's not well i'll send you that

1178
00:42:07,030 --> 00:42:05,280
one as well

1179
00:42:09,430 --> 00:42:07,040
you might like it a bit more especially

1180
00:42:11,910 --> 00:42:09,440
given our conversation

1181
00:42:12,950 --> 00:42:11,920
it seems like there's a mistake that

1182
00:42:14,950 --> 00:42:12,960
people make

1183
00:42:16,630 --> 00:42:14,960
that people like sam harris and people

1184
00:42:18,230 --> 00:42:16,640
like

1185
00:42:21,910 --> 00:42:18,240
cosmic skeptic who's a youtuber is

1186
00:42:24,870 --> 00:42:21,920
extremely bright he's young so i

1187
00:42:26,150 --> 00:42:24,880
well he's extremely bright but i it's a

1188
00:42:28,230 --> 00:42:26,160
utilitarian approach

1189
00:42:29,589 --> 00:42:28,240
that they think that we're aimed

1190
00:42:31,349 --> 00:42:29,599
ultimately

1191
00:42:33,190 --> 00:42:31,359
at the good and i don't think that

1192
00:42:36,630 --> 00:42:33,200
everyone is aimed toward

1193
00:42:39,109 --> 00:42:36,640
something good i think that

1194
00:42:40,950 --> 00:42:39,119
most people including myself are aimed

1195
00:42:44,069 --> 00:42:40,960
at destruction

1196
00:42:46,550 --> 00:42:44,079
and if you were aimed at the good

1197
00:42:48,390 --> 00:42:46,560
it would be a an earth-shattering

1198
00:42:50,069 --> 00:42:48,400
transfiguring event

1199
00:42:52,230 --> 00:42:50,079
and i don't think any single person on

1200
00:42:56,470 --> 00:42:52,240
this planet is fully aimed at the good

1201
00:43:00,790 --> 00:42:58,550
okay can you so what do you mean you are

1202
00:43:01,270 --> 00:43:00,800
aimed at destruction that really struck

1203
00:43:04,069 --> 00:43:01,280
me

1204
00:43:04,710 --> 00:43:04,079
i don't sense that at all i i sense that

1205
00:43:06,470 --> 00:43:04,720
that you're

1206
00:43:07,910 --> 00:43:06,480
on the same journey that i'm at of

1207
00:43:09,990 --> 00:43:07,920
trying to find the truth

1208
00:43:13,430 --> 00:43:10,000
trying to be a better person trying to

1209
00:43:17,990 --> 00:43:13,440
be more aligned with the with the light

1210
00:43:22,150 --> 00:43:18,000
yeah yeah well i would say

1211
00:43:25,510 --> 00:43:22,160
i'm a liar i'm a selfish person

1212
00:43:32,069 --> 00:43:28,710
when i say i'm a liar i mean

1213
00:43:36,069 --> 00:43:32,079
not right now but i lie to myself

1214
00:43:37,990 --> 00:43:36,079
i'm uh i'm exceedingly selfish i

1215
00:43:39,349 --> 00:43:38,000
i'm not anywhere near as loving as it

1216
00:43:39,750 --> 00:43:39,359
could be i don't visit my parents that's

1217
00:43:43,030 --> 00:43:39,760
enough

1218
00:43:46,390 --> 00:43:43,040
as much as i should i

1219
00:43:50,390 --> 00:43:48,550
homeless people i dismiss i don't give

1220
00:43:52,470 --> 00:43:50,400
them enough credit for

1221
00:43:53,750 --> 00:43:52,480
what they're going through i dismiss

1222
00:43:57,990 --> 00:43:53,760
their problems

1223
00:44:01,670 --> 00:43:58,000
often i don't give enough i

1224
00:44:03,829 --> 00:44:01,680
think that if i speed slightly

1225
00:44:05,349 --> 00:44:03,839
even if it's more than slightly that

1226
00:44:06,470 --> 00:44:05,359
it's okay because i know better i know

1227
00:44:09,109 --> 00:44:06,480
how to drive

1228
00:44:11,030 --> 00:44:09,119
how fast do you go you look like

1229
00:44:13,270 --> 00:44:11,040
somebody who likes to drive fast

1230
00:44:14,630 --> 00:44:13,280
no absolutely not actually like my wife

1231
00:44:15,030 --> 00:44:14,640
yells at me all the time because i drive

1232
00:44:16,390 --> 00:44:15,040
slow

1233
00:44:17,150 --> 00:44:16,400
so that one's it is a bit of an

1234
00:44:19,030 --> 00:44:17,160
exaggeration

1235
00:44:22,550 --> 00:44:19,040
[Laughter]

1236
00:44:25,589 --> 00:44:22,560
see but hold up bro hold up

1237
00:44:27,990 --> 00:44:25,599
so you said you read my book yeah i hope

1238
00:44:30,230 --> 00:44:28,000
you got to the last chapter

1239
00:44:31,510 --> 00:44:30,240
because to me it's the most meaningful

1240
00:44:35,270 --> 00:44:31,520
chapter okay

1241
00:44:37,670 --> 00:44:35,280
for me that i got to yeah in my

1242
00:44:39,829 --> 00:44:37,680
many year investigation of this i came

1243
00:44:43,349 --> 00:44:39,839
to two conclusions kurt

1244
00:44:45,270 --> 00:44:43,359
number one is we are more we are not the

1245
00:44:46,230 --> 00:44:45,280
biological robots in a meaningless

1246
00:44:49,910 --> 00:44:46,240
universe

1247
00:44:51,750 --> 00:44:49,920
that science is telling us we are more

1248
00:44:54,390 --> 00:44:51,760
but the second part of that

1249
00:44:55,510 --> 00:44:54,400
that i would have to strongly disagree

1250
00:44:59,910 --> 00:44:55,520
with you

1251
00:45:03,190 --> 00:44:59,920
we are good we are fundamentally good

1252
00:45:06,710 --> 00:45:03,200
the evil thing the dark thing

1253
00:45:07,670 --> 00:45:06,720
gets way overplayed bro it's about the

1254
00:45:13,670 --> 00:45:07,680
light

1255
00:45:14,870 --> 00:45:13,680
all's we have to do is look up and

1256
00:45:17,990 --> 00:45:14,880
whenever we look up

1257
00:45:21,190 --> 00:45:18,000
it's there i make i

1258
00:45:24,309 --> 00:45:21,200
am in a constant dialogue

1259
00:45:26,790 --> 00:45:24,319
with myself about all the things that i

1260
00:45:29,030 --> 00:45:26,800
fail on a regular basis on a minute by

1261
00:45:29,589 --> 00:45:29,040
minute basis that you're talking about i

1262
00:45:32,150 --> 00:45:29,599
get it

1263
00:45:34,390 --> 00:45:32,160
i have four kids do you imagine how much

1264
00:45:36,550 --> 00:45:34,400
i've messed up those four kids i

1265
00:45:37,750 --> 00:45:36,560
have a wife of 30 years oh i've

1266
00:45:41,589 --> 00:45:37,760
tormented her

1267
00:45:45,190 --> 00:45:41,599
30 years but it doesn't matter the light

1268
00:45:48,870 --> 00:45:45,200
always shines always drawing me towards

1269
00:45:51,270 --> 00:45:48,880
being better making better choices

1270
00:45:52,710 --> 00:45:51,280
and forgiving everything that i could

1271
00:45:54,870 --> 00:45:52,720
have ever done

1272
00:45:57,270 --> 00:45:54,880
that's i don't i don't did you say

1273
00:45:58,829 --> 00:45:57,280
forgive me i don't understand your your

1274
00:46:01,109 --> 00:45:58,839
your sense did you say the word

1275
00:46:04,390 --> 00:46:01,119
forgiving did you say that

1276
00:46:06,309 --> 00:46:04,400
did you say the word forgiving

1277
00:46:07,430 --> 00:46:06,319
i did the light forgives you okay okay

1278
00:46:09,430 --> 00:46:07,440
but but i think

1279
00:46:11,270 --> 00:46:09,440
let me go back and i know i kind of did

1280
00:46:12,870 --> 00:46:11,280
a little sermon there but

1281
00:46:14,710 --> 00:46:12,880
let me tie it back so people understand

1282
00:46:18,150 --> 00:46:14,720
where i'm coming from the most

1283
00:46:19,910 --> 00:46:18,160
profound information we get from the

1284
00:46:21,109 --> 00:46:19,920
near death experience science and at

1285
00:46:22,710 --> 00:46:21,119
this point there's over 200

1286
00:46:24,950 --> 00:46:22,720
peer-reviewed

1287
00:46:26,950 --> 00:46:24,960
papers on near-death experience science

1288
00:46:28,790 --> 00:46:26,960
there's thousands of accounts that have

1289
00:46:31,349 --> 00:46:28,800
been reviewed by medical doctors and

1290
00:46:33,430 --> 00:46:31,359
said yes this sounds like someone who

1291
00:46:35,589 --> 00:46:33,440
would be a candidate for having the

1292
00:46:36,150 --> 00:46:35,599
amazing transformative experience that

1293
00:46:37,430 --> 00:46:36,160
they have

1294
00:46:39,190 --> 00:46:37,440
here's the number one thing that comes

1295
00:46:42,550 --> 00:46:39,200
out you

1296
00:46:44,470 --> 00:46:42,560
curt will be judged you will be judged

1297
00:46:45,990 --> 00:46:44,480
for all the things that you just said

1298
00:46:49,349 --> 00:46:46,000
that you do wrong

1299
00:46:52,630 --> 00:46:49,359
and you will be judged not by

1300
00:46:56,710 --> 00:46:52,640
god not by jesus

1301
00:47:00,390 --> 00:46:56,720
not by buddha you will be judged by you

1302
00:47:03,589 --> 00:47:00,400
just like the way you are now and

1303
00:47:06,470 --> 00:47:03,599
in that extended realm

1304
00:47:07,430 --> 00:47:06,480
you will be loved and supported and told

1305
00:47:09,990 --> 00:47:07,440
it's okay

1306
00:47:12,069 --> 00:47:10,000
kurt you're just there to learn and

1307
00:47:14,550 --> 00:47:12,079
experience and do the best you can

1308
00:47:15,270 --> 00:47:14,560
but you will still be in that state that

1309
00:47:18,309 --> 00:47:15,280
you were in

1310
00:47:18,870 --> 00:47:18,319
10 minutes ago as will i when when i'm

1311
00:47:22,470 --> 00:47:18,880
saying

1312
00:47:23,270 --> 00:47:22,480
how could i have been so cold how could

1313
00:47:25,670 --> 00:47:23,280
i have been so

1314
00:47:26,870 --> 00:47:25,680
unloving to my daughter at that moment

1315
00:47:29,589 --> 00:47:26,880
how could i have

1316
00:47:31,910 --> 00:47:29,599
missed making eye contact with that

1317
00:47:33,750 --> 00:47:31,920
person who just wanted me to smile at

1318
00:47:35,990 --> 00:47:33,760
them as they crossed the street

1319
00:47:37,510 --> 00:47:36,000
how could i have done it and i will feel

1320
00:47:41,030 --> 00:47:37,520
that

1321
00:47:44,390 --> 00:47:41,040
but i will be the one who will say

1322
00:47:45,430 --> 00:47:44,400
i'm human i'll do better next time jesus

1323
00:47:49,109 --> 00:47:45,440
won't judge me

1324
00:47:51,910 --> 00:47:49,119
to lift me up

1325
00:47:52,950 --> 00:47:51,920
i will judge my own soul that's what

1326
00:47:54,390 --> 00:47:52,960
comes through from the near death

1327
00:47:55,349 --> 00:47:54,400
because i'm not making this up

1328
00:47:57,910 --> 00:47:55,359
that's what comes through from the

1329
00:47:59,829 --> 00:47:57,920
near-death experience science like 90

1330
00:48:01,349 --> 00:47:59,839
of people that's what they're saying

1331
00:48:03,670 --> 00:48:01,359
they're saying there is a god

1332
00:48:07,990 --> 00:48:03,680
it's all loving all forgiving and your

1333
00:48:12,069 --> 00:48:10,710
there's a quote i hope it's a quote i

1334
00:48:13,990 --> 00:48:12,079
mean i think it's a quote

1335
00:48:15,750 --> 00:48:14,000
that hell is a prison locked from the

1336
00:48:20,230 --> 00:48:15,760
inside absolutely

1337
00:48:23,270 --> 00:48:20,240
i think that's true i think that

1338
00:48:25,589 --> 00:48:23,280
the sins we commit if

1339
00:48:26,309 --> 00:48:25,599
you hold your if you have a conscience

1340
00:48:28,390 --> 00:48:26,319
which

1341
00:48:29,349 --> 00:48:28,400
is difficult to have but if you have a

1342
00:48:32,390 --> 00:48:29,359
conscience

1343
00:48:36,230 --> 00:48:32,400
and you feel bad about it

1344
00:48:37,910 --> 00:48:36,240
you don't realize it's almost it almost

1345
00:48:38,549 --> 00:48:37,920
brings you to tears now let me bring up

1346
00:48:39,750 --> 00:48:38,559
jesus

1347
00:48:41,030 --> 00:48:39,760
just for the sake of this even though

1348
00:48:41,829 --> 00:48:41,040
you said that it's you that forgives

1349
00:48:45,349 --> 00:48:41,839
yourself

1350
00:48:47,190 --> 00:48:45,359
but there's also some analogy between

1351
00:48:48,870 --> 00:48:47,200
you and god in the christian faith

1352
00:48:49,670 --> 00:48:48,880
anyway where it says you're made in the

1353
00:48:52,470 --> 00:48:49,680
image of god

1354
00:48:53,750 --> 00:48:52,480
so it can go both ways depending on your

1355
00:48:57,109 --> 00:48:53,760
interpretation but let's just take

1356
00:49:00,470 --> 00:48:58,790
that you go to jesus and almost angrily

1357
00:49:01,990 --> 00:49:00,480
you said you say men yeah

1358
00:49:03,270 --> 00:49:02,000
yeah right you forgive me for everything

1359
00:49:04,069 --> 00:49:03,280
that i've done even though i did it and

1360
00:49:07,430 --> 00:49:04,079
i

1361
00:49:09,430 --> 00:49:07,440
jesus just says yes

1362
00:49:10,549 --> 00:49:09,440
i forgive you and then you just sit with

1363
00:49:14,710 --> 00:49:10,559
that and you realize

1364
00:49:17,510 --> 00:49:14,720
i'm a [\h__\h] you just want to cry

1365
00:49:18,390 --> 00:49:17,520
you don't realize that despite all that

1366
00:49:22,470 --> 00:49:18,400
you've done

1367
00:49:24,470 --> 00:49:22,480
are actually forgiven

1368
00:49:27,030 --> 00:49:24,480
it's just you that has to accept that

1369
00:49:28,870 --> 00:49:27,040
you're forgiven

1370
00:49:31,510 --> 00:49:28,880
and that's tricky man that's that's not

1371
00:49:35,910 --> 00:49:31,520
easy at all

1372
00:49:37,990 --> 00:49:35,920
well this is what's so beautiful about

1373
00:49:40,309 --> 00:49:38,000
some of the beliefs that are interwoven

1374
00:49:42,829 --> 00:49:40,319
into the christian tradition

1375
00:49:44,230 --> 00:49:42,839
i still strongly believe that we have to

1376
00:49:47,430 --> 00:49:44,240
disintermediate

1377
00:49:51,109 --> 00:49:47,440
and that there there's a cultish aspect

1378
00:49:54,950 --> 00:49:51,119
of bringing along these truths

1379
00:49:57,109 --> 00:49:54,960
having these truths bring along some

1380
00:49:59,589 --> 00:49:57,119
untruths that can be really destructive

1381
00:49:59,910 --> 00:49:59,599
in our life and i think christianity has

1382
00:50:02,950 --> 00:49:59,920
to

1383
00:50:04,549 --> 00:50:02,960
own that but i fundamentally agree with

1384
00:50:07,589 --> 00:50:04,559
you that is a wonderful

1385
00:50:08,630 --> 00:50:07,599
deep deep truth that you can build your

1386
00:50:12,390 --> 00:50:08,640
whole life on

1387
00:50:14,390 --> 00:50:12,400
and and i right on i'm

1388
00:50:15,670 --> 00:50:14,400
many many many great in in many

1389
00:50:19,030 --> 00:50:15,680
traditions have

1390
00:50:23,670 --> 00:50:19,040
have kind of expressed similar ideas

1391
00:50:28,470 --> 00:50:26,710
let's see i wrote that yeah you

1392
00:50:29,910 --> 00:50:28,480
surprised me with this book

1393
00:50:32,150 --> 00:50:29,920
it's interesting to me and that's not

1394
00:50:35,910 --> 00:50:32,160
easy though the cover needs work

1395
00:50:37,030 --> 00:50:35,920
that's whatever okay so

1396
00:50:38,390 --> 00:50:37,040
there's one quote it's near the

1397
00:50:39,430 --> 00:50:38,400
beginning i like this he said mention

1398
00:50:40,950 --> 00:50:39,440
evil and folks look

1399
00:50:42,790 --> 00:50:40,960
for a bible behind your back i like that

1400
00:50:43,670 --> 00:50:42,800
that's true i didn't understand what

1401
00:50:45,190 --> 00:50:43,680
psyops was

1402
00:50:50,549 --> 00:50:45,200
and why you titled it the devil as a

1403
00:50:53,670 --> 00:50:52,309
yeah i don't understand what psyops is

1404
00:50:53,990 --> 00:50:53,680
is this relevant to the conversation

1405
00:50:55,030 --> 00:50:54,000
because

1406
00:50:59,430 --> 00:50:55,040
if not then we can talk about that

1407
00:51:01,510 --> 00:50:59,440
another time i think it is relevant

1408
00:51:03,910 --> 00:51:01,520
because i think there's a it's relevant

1409
00:51:05,990 --> 00:51:03,920
on a bunch of different levels

1410
00:51:06,950 --> 00:51:06,000
one of the things that i came to

1411
00:51:08,790 --> 00:51:06,960
understand

1412
00:51:11,829 --> 00:51:08,800
in this journey that i've been on i mean

1413
00:51:15,109 --> 00:51:11,839
i really started as a science guy

1414
00:51:17,109 --> 00:51:15,119
i was computer science in school i went

1415
00:51:18,870 --> 00:51:17,119
back to get a phd in artificial

1416
00:51:21,910 --> 00:51:18,880
intelligence

1417
00:51:24,630 --> 00:51:21,920
i love the precision you know of it's

1418
00:51:27,430 --> 00:51:24,640
not a math precision but it's like

1419
00:51:27,750 --> 00:51:27,440
programming is a wonderful thing if you

1420
00:51:31,430 --> 00:51:27,760
get

1421
00:51:33,270 --> 00:51:31,440
one little semicolon wrong

1422
00:51:34,790 --> 00:51:33,280
the whole thing doesn't work you want to

1423
00:51:35,510 --> 00:51:34,800
talk about precision you got to be

1424
00:51:37,349 --> 00:51:35,520
precise

1425
00:51:38,549 --> 00:51:37,359
it's great training particularly for

1426
00:51:41,430 --> 00:51:38,559
someone like me who's more of an

1427
00:51:45,510 --> 00:51:43,750
one of the so when i started answering

1428
00:51:46,390 --> 00:51:45,520
the big questions who are we why are we

1429
00:51:49,030 --> 00:51:46,400
here

1430
00:51:51,109 --> 00:51:49,040
i was drawn to science i was drawn to

1431
00:51:53,990 --> 00:51:51,119
rupert sheldrick

1432
00:51:55,829 --> 00:51:54,000
dean rayden don hoffman who i really

1433
00:51:57,750 --> 00:51:55,839
interviewed 10 years ago even though i

1434
00:52:00,150 --> 00:51:57,760
just did a second interview with him now

1435
00:52:01,109 --> 00:52:00,160
those were when was the second interview

1436
00:52:02,790 --> 00:52:01,119
what's that

1437
00:52:04,390 --> 00:52:02,800
when did you do the second interview

1438
00:52:07,109 --> 00:52:04,400
like about a year ago

1439
00:52:09,589 --> 00:52:07,119
oh okay okay so but those were the

1440
00:52:12,150 --> 00:52:09,599
people i was drawn to

1441
00:52:13,430 --> 00:52:12,160
but the one thing that i came to realize

1442
00:52:16,630 --> 00:52:13,440
in all that

1443
00:52:19,670 --> 00:52:16,640
is one that science

1444
00:52:22,069 --> 00:52:19,680
as we know it is best

1445
00:52:22,790 --> 00:52:22,079
understood from a conspiratorial

1446
00:52:26,390 --> 00:52:22,800
framework

1447
00:52:29,750 --> 00:52:26,400
from a psyop psychological operations

1448
00:52:33,430 --> 00:52:29,760
and it's not anyone who doesn't accept

1449
00:52:36,390 --> 00:52:33,440
that that that is the role of government

1450
00:52:37,109 --> 00:52:36,400
you know we look at north korea and we

1451
00:52:39,750 --> 00:52:37,119
go

1452
00:52:40,309 --> 00:52:39,760
wow i mean they're running such a

1453
00:52:42,630 --> 00:52:40,319
[\h__\h]

1454
00:52:43,750 --> 00:52:42,640
psyop of psychological operation on

1455
00:52:46,549 --> 00:52:43,760
their population

1456
00:52:47,349 --> 00:52:46,559
how could they do that we look at china

1457
00:52:50,710 --> 00:52:47,359
and we say it

1458
00:52:51,430 --> 00:52:50,720
the same how could they live with social

1459
00:52:53,990 --> 00:52:51,440
credits

1460
00:52:56,309 --> 00:52:54,000
we we used to look at russia in the same

1461
00:52:59,990 --> 00:52:56,319
way we seem to not look at them that way

1462
00:53:03,190 --> 00:53:00,000
but we never look at canada

1463
00:53:05,670 --> 00:53:03,200
we never look at the united states so

1464
00:53:07,030 --> 00:53:05,680
as things gets revealed you know mk

1465
00:53:09,589 --> 00:53:07,040
ultra that we were

1466
00:53:10,230 --> 00:53:09,599
actively pursuing mind control and it's

1467
00:53:13,510 --> 00:53:10,240
released

1468
00:53:17,190 --> 00:53:13,520
into the public we still deny

1469
00:53:20,630 --> 00:53:17,200
that governments always

1470
00:53:24,390 --> 00:53:20,640
felt that one of their jobs is to

1471
00:53:26,710 --> 00:53:24,400
control the population through

1472
00:53:29,510 --> 00:53:26,720
social engineering okay how does that

1473
00:53:32,950 --> 00:53:29,520
relate to christianity

1474
00:53:35,109 --> 00:53:32,960
well i think what it relates to is

1475
00:53:36,870 --> 00:53:35,119
when we're saying you were saying in my

1476
00:53:38,470 --> 00:53:36,880
book that you didn't really understand

1477
00:53:43,190 --> 00:53:38,480
the idea of a psyop

1478
00:53:47,349 --> 00:53:43,200
a psychological operation so i think

1479
00:53:48,710 --> 00:53:47,359
gloria steinem and her involvement in

1480
00:53:51,510 --> 00:53:48,720
feminism

1481
00:53:53,510 --> 00:53:51,520
under the control of the cia under the

1482
00:53:56,710 --> 00:53:53,520
direction of the cia

1483
00:53:58,710 --> 00:53:56,720
is the closest thing i can do to putting

1484
00:54:02,230 --> 00:53:58,720
my finger on a psy up that would be

1485
00:54:03,030 --> 00:54:02,240
particularly relevant to better left

1486
00:54:06,630 --> 00:54:03,040
unsaid

1487
00:54:10,390 --> 00:54:08,950
okay here's here's what's here's what

1488
00:54:11,990 --> 00:54:10,400
i'm wondering

1489
00:54:13,750 --> 00:54:12,000
let's imagine there's this let's imagine

1490
00:54:14,230 --> 00:54:13,760
that's true then does the government

1491
00:54:17,109 --> 00:54:14,240
also

1492
00:54:18,390 --> 00:54:17,119
play psyop games if you can call it that

1493
00:54:20,950 --> 00:54:18,400
with the right

1494
00:54:22,309 --> 00:54:20,960
and then what is their so so what is

1495
00:54:23,670 --> 00:54:22,319
their so they don't have a political

1496
00:54:24,950 --> 00:54:23,680
orientation left to right doesn't matter

1497
00:54:27,829 --> 00:54:24,960
to them they just want control

1498
00:54:28,470 --> 00:54:27,839
is that correct i don't know but that

1499
00:54:32,230 --> 00:54:28,480
certainly

1500
00:54:35,750 --> 00:54:32,240
rings true to me you don't want the guys

1501
00:54:38,789 --> 00:54:35,760
with the torches and pitchforks storming

1502
00:54:41,829 --> 00:54:38,799
the castle

1503
00:54:43,910 --> 00:54:41,839
you know going back to

1504
00:54:45,510 --> 00:54:43,920
your your book is called why evil

1505
00:54:48,069 --> 00:54:45,520
matters

1506
00:54:49,430 --> 00:54:48,079
something when we first spoke something

1507
00:54:52,630 --> 00:54:49,440
i'm interested in

1508
00:54:54,630 --> 00:54:52,640
is what i call the source question

1509
00:54:58,150 --> 00:54:54,640
which is an innocuous question is

1510
00:55:00,870 --> 00:54:58,160
usually binary maybe yes or no

1511
00:55:02,549 --> 00:55:00,880
that taken to its logical extreme leads

1512
00:55:04,470 --> 00:55:02,559
you down to a route of evil

1513
00:55:06,309 --> 00:55:04,480
versus good i think i mentioned it to

1514
00:55:10,549 --> 00:55:06,319
you and i'll explain what i mean

1515
00:55:14,309 --> 00:55:10,559
but going back to the government's

1516
00:55:15,349 --> 00:55:14,319
acquisition of power jung carl jung said

1517
00:55:18,549 --> 00:55:15,359
that

1518
00:55:21,030 --> 00:55:18,559
so interesting because

1519
00:55:21,990 --> 00:55:21,040
that means when you're fully driven by

1520
00:55:24,789 --> 00:55:22,000
love

1521
00:55:25,270 --> 00:55:24,799
you don't want power you give it up and

1522
00:55:27,589 --> 00:55:25,280
when you

1523
00:55:28,470 --> 00:55:27,599
are driven by power it's the opposite of

1524
00:55:30,710 --> 00:55:28,480
being loving

1525
00:55:31,750 --> 00:55:30,720
and there's in the christian faith as

1526
00:55:34,549 --> 00:55:31,760
well as others there's

1527
00:55:35,750 --> 00:55:34,559
this extreme association between love

1528
00:55:38,789 --> 00:55:35,760
and the divine

1529
00:55:41,990 --> 00:55:38,799
i i think that's incredibly

1530
00:55:44,630 --> 00:55:42,000
meaningful to me personally it's a great

1531
00:55:46,470 --> 00:55:44,640
thought bomb to to drop on somebody and

1532
00:55:48,789 --> 00:55:46,480
you know have young up here in the

1533
00:55:50,630 --> 00:55:48,799
in the corner but you just reminded me

1534
00:55:53,829 --> 00:55:50,640
of one of his most profound

1535
00:55:55,510 --> 00:55:53,839
quotes there i appreciate it i know this

1536
00:55:57,589 --> 00:55:55,520
is not meant to be me interviewing you

1537
00:56:00,630 --> 00:55:57,599
but i did have a question for you

1538
00:56:01,030 --> 00:56:00,640
do you think that the world is meant to

1539
00:56:02,710 --> 00:56:01,040
be

1540
00:56:04,069 --> 00:56:02,720
now meant obviously there's a telos

1541
00:56:05,750 --> 00:56:04,079
there's a purpose there do you think the

1542
00:56:08,470 --> 00:56:05,760
world is meant

1543
00:56:10,390 --> 00:56:08,480
to be unintelligible that is to say that

1544
00:56:14,829 --> 00:56:10,400
we are not meant to know the answer

1545
00:56:18,069 --> 00:56:14,839
i think my answer would be your awesome

1546
00:56:20,549 --> 00:56:18,079
jungian truth bomb

1547
00:56:23,190 --> 00:56:20,559
it's like the difference between

1548
00:56:26,230 --> 00:56:23,200
consciousness is fundamental

1549
00:56:27,270 --> 00:56:26,240
and matter is fundamental if

1550
00:56:29,710 --> 00:56:27,280
consciousness

1551
00:56:31,430 --> 00:56:29,720
is and it's unimaginable it's

1552
00:56:35,670 --> 00:56:31,440
incomprehensible

1553
00:56:42,309 --> 00:56:39,829
then love is all there is

1554
00:56:43,990 --> 00:56:42,319
and we're constantly in this shadow

1555
00:56:47,030 --> 00:56:44,000
dancing game

1556
00:56:50,470 --> 00:56:47,040
of our attachment to the material

1557
00:56:53,829 --> 00:56:50,480
our desire our interest in

1558
00:56:57,109 --> 00:56:53,839
dark but really the game

1559
00:56:59,030 --> 00:56:57,119
is about love and that's intelligible

1560
00:57:00,630 --> 00:56:59,040
as you're saying to put in your dreams

1561
00:57:04,789 --> 00:57:00,640
love is the

1562
00:57:08,309 --> 00:57:04,799
ultimate unintelligible right

1563
00:57:12,789 --> 00:57:08,319
okay now why is it that if consciousness

1564
00:57:16,470 --> 00:57:12,799
is as deepak would say ontologically

1565
00:57:16,789 --> 00:57:16,480
fundamental why is it that love comes in

1566
00:57:19,430 --> 00:57:16,799
there

1567
00:57:19,910 --> 00:57:19,440
because in don donald hoffman's model

1568
00:57:21,349 --> 00:57:19,920
it's just

1569
00:57:24,829 --> 00:57:21,359
experiences there's nothing that

1570
00:57:26,950 --> 00:57:24,839
privileges one experience over the

1571
00:57:30,069 --> 00:57:26,960
rest there's no love

1572
00:57:32,710 --> 00:57:30,079
in the sets that he generates they're

1573
00:57:36,390 --> 00:57:35,589
so why is it why is it okay let me say

1574
00:57:38,150 --> 00:57:36,400
like this

1575
00:57:39,510 --> 00:57:38,160
people who say that consciousness is

1576
00:57:40,789 --> 00:57:39,520
fundamental now i'm not saying that i

1577
00:57:42,150 --> 00:57:40,799
disagree i'm just saying people who say

1578
00:57:45,910 --> 00:57:42,160
that generally

1579
00:57:48,309 --> 00:57:45,920
also tend to believe that there is a god

1580
00:57:49,510 --> 00:57:48,319
and that love is also fundamental in

1581
00:57:53,109 --> 00:57:49,520
some manner

1582
00:57:59,270 --> 00:57:56,630
pervasive and overriding

1583
00:58:00,470 --> 00:57:59,280
of all the rest of the experiences in

1584
00:58:02,710 --> 00:58:00,480
qualia

1585
00:58:04,069 --> 00:58:02,720
i don't see how those two go hand in

1586
00:58:05,349 --> 00:58:04,079
hand i don't see how consciousness is

1587
00:58:08,470 --> 00:58:05,359
fundamental

1588
00:58:10,230 --> 00:58:08,480
implies god nor do i see how it implies

1589
00:58:11,430 --> 00:58:10,240
love and i'm not saying i disagree i

1590
00:58:12,230 --> 00:58:11,440
just don't see how it implies so please

1591
00:58:16,309 --> 00:58:12,240
help me out

1592
00:58:17,589 --> 00:58:16,319
i i don't think the word that pops to

1593
00:58:20,950 --> 00:58:17,599
mind for me kurt

1594
00:58:24,789 --> 00:58:20,960
and i want you to riff on this

1595
00:58:27,750 --> 00:58:24,799
as much as i am is transcendence

1596
00:58:29,829 --> 00:58:27,760
that's why all the spiritual traditions

1597
00:58:33,190 --> 00:58:29,839
point to transcendence

1598
00:58:36,789 --> 00:58:33,200
transcending transformation being

1599
00:58:39,990 --> 00:58:36,799
born again it's that they are not

1600
00:58:41,190 --> 00:58:40,000
the same they are completely in a

1601
00:58:43,510 --> 00:58:41,200
different state

1602
00:58:45,430 --> 00:58:43,520
they're not intelligible and another way

1603
00:58:49,109 --> 00:58:45,440
to approach the intelligible thing

1604
00:58:52,710 --> 00:58:49,119
that maybe you've run across but

1605
00:58:55,109 --> 00:58:52,720
people have extraordinary spiritually

1606
00:58:57,910 --> 00:58:55,119
transformative experiences

1607
00:58:59,510 --> 00:58:57,920
and they'll come back and say i knew

1608
00:59:02,710 --> 00:58:59,520
everything

1609
00:59:03,349 --> 00:59:02,720
i no sooner could even formulate a

1610
00:59:05,750 --> 00:59:03,359
question

1611
00:59:07,589 --> 00:59:05,760
in my mind that it was answered

1612
00:59:10,230 --> 00:59:07,599
completely for me

1613
00:59:11,190 --> 00:59:10,240
and yet when i came back i wasn't able

1614
00:59:13,030 --> 00:59:11,200
to retain that

1615
00:59:14,710 --> 00:59:13,040
i don't have that knowledge there's

1616
00:59:17,589 --> 00:59:14,720
there's no worse

1617
00:59:18,150 --> 00:59:17,599
truism than the spiritually enlightened

1618
00:59:19,990 --> 00:59:18,160
individual

1619
00:59:21,510 --> 00:59:20,000
that comes back and doesn't manifest

1620
00:59:23,510 --> 00:59:21,520
that into their life does it

1621
00:59:24,789 --> 00:59:23,520
reintegrate it and they truly had the

1622
00:59:26,710 --> 00:59:24,799
experience but

1623
00:59:28,630 --> 00:59:26,720
at this level they aren't able to

1624
00:59:31,190 --> 00:59:28,640
reintegrate that's just

1625
00:59:31,990 --> 00:59:31,200
we all see it you know but okay that's

1626
00:59:34,549 --> 00:59:32,000
interesting

1627
00:59:35,270 --> 00:59:34,559
let me riff on that so dostoyevsky had

1628
00:59:38,069 --> 00:59:35,280
some

1629
00:59:39,430 --> 00:59:38,079
a particular kind of epilepsy sorry a

1630
00:59:40,069 --> 00:59:39,440
particular kind of seizure that when he

1631
00:59:48,630 --> 00:59:40,079
was

1632
00:59:51,829 --> 00:59:48,640
that point of comprehension he would

1633
00:59:54,150 --> 00:59:51,839
have a seizure he would seize up

1634
00:59:56,390 --> 00:59:54,160
that's interesting because it sounds

1635
00:59:58,069 --> 00:59:56,400
like perhaps this world this material

1636
01:00:00,309 --> 00:59:58,079
world even though

1637
01:00:01,270 --> 01:00:00,319
the material seems in some accounts to

1638
01:00:04,309 --> 01:00:01,280
be engendered by

1639
01:00:07,750 --> 01:00:04,319
the conscious world this material

1640
01:00:09,990 --> 01:00:07,760
world is the world that

1641
01:00:11,750 --> 01:00:10,000
we for whatever reason cannot have all

1642
01:00:13,030 --> 01:00:11,760
the answers and as soon as we do have

1643
01:00:14,390 --> 01:00:13,040
all the answers that's something like

1644
01:00:19,990 --> 01:00:14,400
transcendence and then you

1645
01:00:26,069 --> 01:00:23,430
okay that makes me wonder why

1646
01:00:28,309 --> 01:00:26,079
at all was this world created seems like

1647
01:00:31,270 --> 01:00:28,319
the other world is blissful and it's

1648
01:00:34,630 --> 01:00:31,280
where we're meant to be regardless

1649
01:00:35,109 --> 01:00:34,640
what's the point of this one well that

1650
01:00:38,150 --> 01:00:35,119
gets

1651
01:00:38,950 --> 01:00:38,160
down to the it's back to the perspective

1652
01:00:41,109 --> 01:00:38,960
question

1653
01:00:42,870 --> 01:00:41,119
you know are you at the top of the

1654
01:00:44,549 --> 01:00:42,880
mountain looking down or the bottom of

1655
01:00:48,710 --> 01:00:44,559
the mountain looking up

1656
01:00:51,829 --> 01:00:48,720
so maybe from our vantage point

1657
01:00:53,990 --> 01:00:51,839
back to your point is

1658
01:00:55,190 --> 01:00:54,000
it's not that it's designed to be

1659
01:00:59,109 --> 01:00:55,200
unintelligible

1660
01:01:00,470 --> 01:00:59,119
it's that you know the monkey brain that

1661
01:01:03,270 --> 01:01:00,480
we have

1662
01:01:03,670 --> 01:01:03,280
just doesn't have the processing power

1663
01:01:05,510 --> 01:01:03,680
to

1664
01:01:07,349 --> 01:01:05,520
or not just the processing power because

1665
01:01:09,349 --> 01:01:07,359
that always puts it in the kind of this

1666
01:01:10,470 --> 01:01:09,359
computer model that i think fails but

1667
01:01:13,910 --> 01:01:10,480
it's just that no

1668
01:01:15,750 --> 01:01:13,920
it's this we're doing

1669
01:01:18,549 --> 01:01:15,760
we're doing what we can with what we

1670
01:01:21,829 --> 01:01:19,910
you see this is why i like kierkegaard

1671
01:01:25,190 --> 01:01:21,839
let's get back to that he said

1672
01:01:25,829 --> 01:01:25,200
that most christians he would call them

1673
01:01:28,470 --> 01:01:25,839
religious

1674
01:01:29,109 --> 01:01:28,480
fanatics and zealots and militant

1675
01:01:33,270 --> 01:01:29,119
christians

1676
01:01:36,950 --> 01:01:33,280
you say

1677
01:01:41,510 --> 01:01:36,960
not a christian

1678
01:01:44,549 --> 01:01:41,520
why because christianity requires faith

1679
01:01:46,710 --> 01:01:44,559
if you say i know this table is here

1680
01:01:47,589 --> 01:01:46,720
there's no faith in that you know it

1681
01:01:50,470 --> 01:01:47,599
what faith

1682
01:01:53,109 --> 01:01:50,480
is is having doubt and uncertainty and

1683
01:01:57,829 --> 01:01:53,119
making the leap regardless

1684
01:02:01,029 --> 01:01:57,839
so perhaps one i'm just

1685
01:02:04,150 --> 01:02:01,039
spitballing and freestyling in a sense

1686
01:02:07,349 --> 01:02:04,160
perhaps one of the reasons we're here

1687
01:02:09,270 --> 01:02:07,359
is to have faith because

1688
01:02:10,390 --> 01:02:09,280
if we had all the answers there is no

1689
01:02:12,470 --> 01:02:10,400
faith

1690
01:02:14,950 --> 01:02:12,480
i i love where you're going with that

1691
01:02:15,349 --> 01:02:14,960
and kierkegaard fear and trembling unto

1692
01:02:18,789 --> 01:02:15,359
death

1693
01:02:20,710 --> 01:02:18,799
is is awesome it is skepticos you know

1694
01:02:23,029 --> 01:02:20,720
when when i started this show and i

1695
01:02:23,910 --> 01:02:23,039
named it skeptico because i have a greek

1696
01:02:27,029 --> 01:02:23,920
heritage half

1697
01:02:27,750 --> 01:02:27,039
on half my side and i just was looking

1698
01:02:29,270 --> 01:02:27,760
up skeptic

1699
01:02:31,349 --> 01:02:29,280
skepticos and i just didn't even know

1700
01:02:33,910 --> 01:02:31,359
what it meant five years later

1701
01:02:36,150 --> 01:02:33,920
i went back and read about these

1702
01:02:39,670 --> 01:02:36,160
philosophers

1703
01:02:40,710 --> 01:02:39,680
and their ethos inquiry to perpetuate

1704
01:02:42,230 --> 01:02:40,720
doubt

1705
01:02:44,069 --> 01:02:42,240
they were saying the exact same thing

1706
01:02:47,589 --> 01:02:44,079
that kierken guard was saying

1707
01:02:50,549 --> 01:02:47,599
that doubt is the most spiritual doubt

1708
01:02:51,430 --> 01:02:50,559
is the most spiritual because you are in

1709
01:02:55,910 --> 01:02:51,440
the state

1710
01:02:58,549 --> 01:02:55,920
of openness once something is decided

1711
01:03:00,309 --> 01:02:58,559
and i would suggest that even faith you

1712
01:03:04,470 --> 01:03:00,319
know

1713
01:03:07,270 --> 01:03:04,480
tick not han the the famous buddhist

1714
01:03:08,630 --> 01:03:07,280
uh teacher vietnamese buddhist teacher

1715
01:03:10,870 --> 01:03:08,640
nominated for the

1716
01:03:11,990 --> 01:03:10,880
nobel prize and obviously super well

1717
01:03:14,789 --> 01:03:12,000
known

1718
01:03:17,109 --> 01:03:14,799
i love his riff on on faith he goes

1719
01:03:19,910 --> 01:03:17,119
faith is an impediment

1720
01:03:21,510 --> 01:03:19,920
faith is a barrier faith is a way of

1721
01:03:25,430 --> 01:03:21,520
holding back

1722
01:03:28,549 --> 01:03:25,440
from truly accepting your predicament

1723
01:03:29,990 --> 01:03:28,559
from truly being open

1724
01:03:31,510 --> 01:03:30,000
i'm not saying i said that sounds like

1725
01:03:33,349 --> 01:03:31,520
the opposite that sounds like the

1726
01:03:36,230 --> 01:03:33,359
opposite of what kierkegaard is saying

1727
01:03:36,549 --> 01:03:36,240
because all these things about faith

1728
01:03:39,589 --> 01:03:36,559
well

1729
01:03:42,630 --> 01:03:39,599
i i think all these things it gets into

1730
01:03:45,109 --> 01:03:42,640
a a semantics kind of thing because

1731
01:03:46,150 --> 01:03:45,119
i love what you just said about uh about

1732
01:03:48,549 --> 01:03:46,160
kierken guard

1733
01:03:50,390 --> 01:03:48,559
in terms of you know if you believe in

1734
01:03:53,029 --> 01:03:50,400
god that you're a believer

1735
01:03:54,789 --> 01:03:53,039
and you're not leaving open you're not

1736
01:03:56,230 --> 01:03:54,799
open you're not open to the experience

1737
01:03:57,750 --> 01:03:56,240
how can you be open to the experience if

1738
01:04:00,069 --> 01:03:57,760
you've already decided

1739
01:04:01,829 --> 01:04:00,079
and so maybe you're using faith in a

1740
01:04:03,349 --> 01:04:01,839
different way than i would but

1741
01:04:05,750 --> 01:04:03,359
it was interesting for me to connect

1742
01:04:08,789 --> 01:04:05,760
that with tiknot han who said

1743
01:04:11,829 --> 01:04:08,799
you know people who have

1744
01:04:12,789 --> 01:04:11,839
faith quote unquote will not be able to

1745
01:04:15,029 --> 01:04:12,799
see

1746
01:04:16,470 --> 01:04:15,039
will not be able to accept the

1747
01:04:18,230 --> 01:04:16,480
transcendence

1748
01:04:21,270 --> 01:04:18,240
because they're closed they're like no i

1749
01:04:21,280 --> 01:04:24,549
i see what you're saying

1750
01:04:29,029 --> 01:04:27,349
yeah well that's interesting let me

1751
01:04:31,270 --> 01:04:29,039
think about that

1752
01:04:32,630 --> 01:04:31,280
hey man you have been one this is one of

1753
01:04:35,109 --> 01:04:32,640
the most amazingly

1754
01:04:35,829 --> 01:04:35,119
interesting turn it on its head

1755
01:04:39,430 --> 01:04:35,839
interviews

1756
01:04:42,309 --> 01:04:39,440
i've ever done um

1757
01:04:43,270 --> 01:04:42,319
let's return to the to the movie if we

1758
01:04:46,150 --> 01:04:43,280
can

1759
01:04:47,990 --> 01:04:46,160
tell folks sure what the best way is for

1760
01:04:50,549 --> 01:04:48,000
them to connect with

1761
01:04:52,630 --> 01:04:50,559
better left unsaid who it's for maybe we

1762
01:04:54,470 --> 01:04:52,640
could go back to the beginning yeah

1763
01:04:56,309 --> 01:04:54,480
who's the movie really for who's it

1764
01:04:58,309 --> 01:04:56,319
targeted at who's going to get the most

1765
01:04:59,910 --> 01:04:58,319
out of it and then how do they get their

1766
01:05:02,069 --> 01:04:59,920
hands on it

1767
01:05:03,510 --> 01:05:02,079
the people who will get likely get the

1768
01:05:03,990 --> 01:05:03,520
most out of it are people who are in the

1769
01:05:08,069 --> 01:05:04,000
center

1770
01:05:09,190 --> 01:05:08,079
you're it seems like if you're more than

1771
01:05:11,510 --> 01:05:09,200
center left

1772
01:05:13,109 --> 01:05:11,520
that you won't like it and same with if

1773
01:05:14,630 --> 01:05:13,119
you're more than center-right because i

1774
01:05:16,069 --> 01:05:14,640
do have my critiques of the extreme

1775
01:05:18,870 --> 01:05:16,079
right

1776
01:05:19,510 --> 01:05:18,880
the movie again is focused on the left

1777
01:05:21,670 --> 01:05:19,520
now

1778
01:05:23,349 --> 01:05:21,680
people have said that's biased it is it

1779
01:05:25,430 --> 01:05:23,359
actually is biased because i'm focusing

1780
01:05:27,029 --> 01:05:25,440
on the left but in a sense it's also not

1781
01:05:28,470 --> 01:05:27,039
it's almost like they're saying well you

1782
01:05:28,789 --> 01:05:28,480
know there are other problems in the

1783
01:05:30,069 --> 01:05:28,799
world

1784
01:05:31,910 --> 01:05:30,079
yes there are other problems in the

1785
01:05:34,950 --> 01:05:31,920
world so when someone

1786
01:05:37,670 --> 01:05:34,960
let's say designs

1787
01:05:38,789 --> 01:05:37,680
a table cleaner like a an all-purpose

1788
01:05:40,390 --> 01:05:38,799
cleaner

1789
01:05:41,829 --> 01:05:40,400
are they doing the world a disservice

1790
01:05:42,789 --> 01:05:41,839
because they're not working on the

1791
01:05:46,309 --> 01:05:42,799
abolishment of

1792
01:05:49,029 --> 01:05:46,319
the potential of nuclear holocaust

1793
01:05:49,349 --> 01:05:49,039
well they're focusing on something else

1794
01:05:51,270 --> 01:05:49,359
so

1795
01:05:52,470 --> 01:05:51,280
i'm focusing on the problem of the

1796
01:05:55,750 --> 01:05:52,480
extreme left

1797
01:05:57,670 --> 01:05:55,760
and during that journey it also takes me

1798
01:05:59,829 --> 01:05:57,680
to the problem of the extreme right

1799
01:06:02,829 --> 01:05:59,839
and i see it in a similar manner of the

1800
01:06:06,630 --> 01:06:05,190
well you know

1801
01:06:07,990 --> 01:06:06,640
it's extremely close to the horseshoe

1802
01:06:09,349 --> 01:06:08,000
theory touch on that a little bit more

1803
01:06:11,990 --> 01:06:09,359
because i thought that was a great

1804
01:06:14,950 --> 01:06:12,000
great point the horseshoe theory

1805
01:06:18,309 --> 01:06:16,549
it's almost like non-duality it

1806
01:06:19,589 --> 01:06:18,319
essentially says at the extremes they

1807
01:06:21,589 --> 01:06:19,599
become the same

1808
01:06:22,789 --> 01:06:21,599
which means the extreme left and the

1809
01:06:24,710 --> 01:06:22,799
extreme right have

1810
01:06:25,910 --> 01:06:24,720
more in common than they have dissimilar

1811
01:06:27,589 --> 01:06:25,920
and it seems like the only thing they

1812
01:06:31,109 --> 01:06:27,599
have dissimilar is the extreme

1813
01:06:33,349 --> 01:06:31,119
right has racial inferiority or some

1814
01:06:34,630 --> 01:06:33,359
genetic inferiority of some other group

1815
01:06:35,990 --> 01:06:34,640
it pretty much just seems like that like

1816
01:06:37,510 --> 01:06:36,000
racism it pretty much

1817
01:06:40,069 --> 01:06:37,520
just seems i couldn't figure out what

1818
01:06:41,270 --> 01:06:40,079
else separates them because fascism as

1819
01:06:43,270 --> 01:06:41,280
much as the left

1820
01:06:45,829 --> 01:06:43,280
or the extreme left dislikes it the

1821
01:06:48,150 --> 01:06:45,839
sorry let's say the

1822
01:06:49,190 --> 01:06:48,160
dislike fascism i would say fascism is

1823
01:06:51,109 --> 01:06:49,200
closer to

1824
01:06:53,029 --> 01:06:51,119
communism than fascism is close to

1825
01:06:54,230 --> 01:06:53,039
capitalism and one of the reasons is

1826
01:06:57,990 --> 01:06:54,240
that well there's a

1827
01:07:00,069 --> 01:06:58,000
term called i think it's like shalton

1828
01:07:02,390 --> 01:07:00,079
it's a german term and it means the

1829
01:07:04,150 --> 01:07:02,400
political unification the unification

1830
01:07:05,510 --> 01:07:04,160
of economic cultural and social

1831
01:07:07,270 --> 01:07:05,520
institutions

1832
01:07:09,510 --> 01:07:07,280
the standardization sorry of that and

1833
01:07:12,150 --> 01:07:09,520
that's a term that

1834
01:07:13,029 --> 01:07:12,160
popular was popularized in 1930s nazi

1835
01:07:15,670 --> 01:07:13,039
germany

1836
01:07:16,950 --> 01:07:15,680
so the standardization is a form of is

1837
01:07:20,069 --> 01:07:16,960
what fascists like and

1838
01:07:22,390 --> 01:07:20,079
as well as you know like you said we get

1839
01:07:25,270 --> 01:07:22,400
into semantics what is communism what is

1840
01:07:27,270 --> 01:07:25,280
marxism what is socialism and so on and

1841
01:07:28,230 --> 01:07:27,280
i actually like semantics i dislike when

1842
01:07:30,069 --> 01:07:28,240
people say

1843
01:07:32,069 --> 01:07:30,079
you're just quibbling your hair's

1844
01:07:34,150 --> 01:07:32,079
splitting no i

1845
01:07:35,190 --> 01:07:34,160
yes yes you're right because the term

1846
01:07:37,109 --> 01:07:35,200
quibbling

1847
01:07:38,069 --> 01:07:37,119
quid quiddity okay what is quiddity

1848
01:07:38,710 --> 01:07:38,079
means it means a hair splitting

1849
01:07:40,950 --> 01:07:38,720
distinction

1850
01:07:42,069 --> 01:07:40,960
but it also means the peculiar the

1851
01:07:44,789 --> 01:07:42,079
peculiar essence

1852
01:07:47,829 --> 01:07:44,799
of something the odd eccentricity of it

1853
01:07:51,510 --> 01:07:47,839
and i'm interested in that

1854
01:07:54,870 --> 01:07:51,520
either way getting back to

1855
01:07:57,270 --> 01:07:54,880
communism marxism and the

1856
01:07:59,109 --> 01:07:57,280
association between that and fascism

1857
01:08:02,390 --> 01:07:59,119
well

1858
01:08:04,230 --> 01:08:02,400
it seems like at the extremes

1859
01:08:05,829 --> 01:08:04,240
they have something in common what do

1860
01:08:09,270 --> 01:08:05,839
they have in common

1861
01:08:10,470 --> 01:08:09,280
that is what i propose in the film i

1862
01:08:14,230 --> 01:08:10,480
come up with some

1863
01:08:17,510 --> 01:08:15,670
and you'll have to watch the film to see

1864
01:08:18,630 --> 01:08:17,520
which four i think now

1865
01:08:20,070 --> 01:08:18,640
that i've had some distance i can

1866
01:08:21,269 --> 01:08:20,080
distill that down to three i think three

1867
01:08:23,990 --> 01:08:21,279
of them implies the fourth

1868
01:08:25,590 --> 01:08:24,000
or the fourth is not required but either

1869
01:08:28,309 --> 01:08:25,600
way there's three or four

1870
01:08:29,349 --> 01:08:28,319
tenets that unify both the extreme left

1871
01:08:32,870 --> 01:08:29,359
and the extreme right

1872
01:08:35,990 --> 01:08:32,880
and they're i want to say equally

1873
01:08:37,030 --> 01:08:36,000
pestilential because it's difficult to

1874
01:08:39,749 --> 01:08:37,040
say

1875
01:08:40,950 --> 01:08:39,759
what was the cause of people dying so

1876
01:08:44,870 --> 01:08:40,960
was it communism

1877
01:08:46,630 --> 01:08:44,880
that caused millions of deaths or was it

1878
01:08:48,390 --> 01:08:46,640
you know causation is an extremely

1879
01:08:50,149 --> 01:08:48,400
extremely difficult thing to point out

1880
01:08:51,430 --> 01:08:50,159
so for example when people die from

1881
01:08:53,189 --> 01:08:51,440
covet what was the cause

1882
01:08:54,470 --> 01:08:53,199
by the way i'm germaphobic extremely so

1883
01:08:55,430 --> 01:08:54,480
i love the lockdown like i love when

1884
01:08:56,950 --> 01:08:55,440
people wear masks

1885
01:08:58,550 --> 01:08:56,960
i'm like i would want to wear masks my

1886
01:08:59,990 --> 01:08:58,560
whole life i would want to disinfect my

1887
01:09:01,590 --> 01:09:00,000
hands i've been doing that i disinfect

1888
01:09:02,149 --> 01:09:01,600
my phone every single time i come in and

1889
01:09:03,269 --> 01:09:02,159
my wife

1890
01:09:04,149 --> 01:09:03,279
she gets mad at me because she's not

1891
01:09:05,590 --> 01:09:04,159
allowed to take her phone out of the

1892
01:09:07,430 --> 01:09:05,600
house and bring it in without it being

1893
01:09:09,030 --> 01:09:07,440
disinfected

1894
01:09:10,470 --> 01:09:09,040
so i'm a fan of that so what was the

1895
01:09:12,229 --> 01:09:10,480
cause of covid was it

1896
01:09:13,910 --> 01:09:12,239
that there weren't more people like me

1897
01:09:15,590 --> 01:09:13,920
that are germaphobic or was it

1898
01:09:20,390 --> 01:09:15,600
that there was a government that was

1899
01:09:24,870 --> 01:09:20,400
fast and loose with some policies of

1900
01:09:26,070 --> 01:09:24,880
of travel and cross-animal contamination

1901
01:09:28,070 --> 01:09:26,080
and so on

1902
01:09:30,070 --> 01:09:28,080
what is the cause it's not clear what

1903
01:09:32,470 --> 01:09:30,080
the cause is so that's another reason

1904
01:09:33,110 --> 01:09:32,480
in the documentary i steer clear of

1905
01:09:36,630 --> 01:09:33,120
saying

1906
01:09:38,709 --> 01:09:36,640
communism caused these deaths instead i

1907
01:09:40,630 --> 01:09:38,719
i look at some of the deaths that i

1908
01:09:42,870 --> 01:09:40,640
think are extremely

1909
01:09:44,630 --> 01:09:42,880
closely tied to the philosophical

1910
01:09:46,309 --> 01:09:44,640
doctrine underlying communism

1911
01:09:47,749 --> 01:09:46,319
and those are much less deaths but

1912
01:09:48,470 --> 01:09:47,759
there's still plenty and the same with

1913
01:09:49,829 --> 01:09:48,480
fascism

1914
01:09:53,030 --> 01:09:49,839
so either way at the extremes the

1915
01:09:58,310 --> 01:09:56,229
that foments both communism and

1916
01:10:01,669 --> 01:09:58,320
the extreme right seem to be similar and

1917
01:10:03,430 --> 01:10:01,679
i outline what that is in the film

1918
01:10:07,110 --> 01:10:03,440
uniquely even though it's been done

1919
01:10:09,110 --> 01:10:07,120
before your spin on it really

1920
01:10:10,390 --> 01:10:09,120
drove it home to me in a way that i

1921
01:10:14,310 --> 01:10:10,400
hadn't

1922
01:10:17,990 --> 01:10:14,320
had never really thought about so yeah

1923
01:10:22,149 --> 01:10:18,000
where do people find this really great

1924
01:10:25,709 --> 01:10:22,159
documentary left better left unsaid

1925
01:10:26,950 --> 01:10:25,719
better left on said film.com

1926
01:10:27,990 --> 01:10:26,960
betterleftonsaidfilm.com

1927
01:10:29,189 --> 01:10:28,000
is where you can find it you can also

1928
01:10:29,990 --> 01:10:29,199
just search better left unsaid on

1929
01:10:31,350 --> 01:10:30,000
youtube and the training

1930
01:10:33,430 --> 01:10:31,360
is there you get you get rid of the

1931
01:10:35,030 --> 01:10:33,440
links are in the description of the

1932
01:10:37,750 --> 01:10:35,040
trailer as well as i think there's a

1933
01:10:41,590 --> 01:10:37,760
twitter account too

1934
01:10:45,750 --> 01:10:41,600
yeah that's that's it's been [\h__\h]

1935
01:10:48,950 --> 01:10:45,760
great so great having you on you're such

1936
01:10:51,270 --> 01:10:48,960
you embody so many of the

1937
01:10:51,990 --> 01:10:51,280
wonderful things that you talk about and

1938
01:10:55,750 --> 01:10:52,000
the

1939
01:10:58,470 --> 01:10:55,760
goodness

1940
01:11:00,310 --> 01:10:58,480
that the movie brings forth so thank you

1941
01:11:02,630 --> 01:11:00,320
i appreciate that

1942
01:11:03,750 --> 01:11:02,640
you're glowing man you're glowing okay

1943
01:11:07,590 --> 01:11:03,760
awesome

1944
01:11:09,990 --> 01:11:07,600
okay i want to say one other i want to

1945
01:11:11,030 --> 01:11:10,000
give a tweak about the film yes an

1946
01:11:12,229 --> 01:11:11,040
amendment okay

1947
01:11:13,270 --> 01:11:12,239
so there are two versions of the film

1948
01:11:14,550 --> 01:11:13,280
like i mentioned there's a public

1949
01:11:16,149 --> 01:11:14,560
version that's an hour and a half then

1950
01:11:17,590 --> 01:11:16,159
there's the director's version that's my

1951
01:11:20,149 --> 01:11:17,600
version it's two hours long

1952
01:11:20,709 --> 01:11:20,159
the director's version is sesquipedalian

1953
01:11:23,750 --> 01:11:20,719
it's also

1954
01:11:26,149 --> 01:11:23,760
tedious and abstract

1955
01:11:28,070 --> 01:11:26,159
so people if you like this podcast

1956
01:11:28,550 --> 01:11:28,080
you're more likely to like the two-hour

1957
01:11:29,830 --> 01:11:28,560
version

1958
01:11:32,229 --> 01:11:29,840
because it means you're someone who

1959
01:11:35,669 --> 01:11:32,239
engages with ideas and

1960
01:11:36,950 --> 01:11:35,679
you like to think but for the general

1961
01:11:38,070 --> 01:11:36,960
public like let's say you're listening

1962
01:11:39,270 --> 01:11:38,080
to this and you're thinking well my

1963
01:11:40,709 --> 01:11:39,280
friends should watch this they should

1964
01:11:41,350 --> 01:11:40,719
probably watch the public version it

1965
01:11:45,430 --> 01:11:41,360
goes by

1966
01:11:47,590 --> 01:11:45,440
much quicker it's not slow the

1967
01:11:48,470 --> 01:11:47,600
director's version is more for academics

1968
01:11:51,189 --> 01:11:48,480
and it can be

1969
01:11:53,669 --> 01:11:51,199
boring if you're not an academic even if

1970
01:11:55,669 --> 01:11:53,679
you're an academic it can be boring

1971
01:11:56,870 --> 01:11:55,679
you'll see so when you go to better left

1972
01:11:59,030 --> 01:11:56,880
unsaid film.com

1973
01:12:02,709 --> 01:11:59,040
i think in about one month so february

1974
01:12:04,070 --> 01:12:02,719
2021 or march 2021

1975
01:12:06,870 --> 01:12:04,080
you'll be able to choose between the

1976
01:12:08,229 --> 01:12:06,880
public or the director's cut

1977
01:12:09,910 --> 01:12:08,239
if you buy it from itunes you won't be

1978
01:12:10,310 --> 01:12:09,920
able to you have to do it on our website

1979
01:12:12,310 --> 01:12:10,320
because

1980
01:12:13,910 --> 01:12:12,320
itunes doesn't allow two versions of the

1981
01:12:15,350 --> 01:12:13,920
film so we're just going to release the

1982
01:12:17,270 --> 01:12:15,360
public version on

1983
01:12:18,790 --> 01:12:17,280
all the other streaming platforms but

1984
01:12:21,910 --> 01:12:18,800
the

1985
01:12:22,470 --> 01:12:21,920
director's version is same price you get

1986
01:12:23,990 --> 01:12:22,480
access to

1987
01:12:25,590 --> 01:12:24,000
both if you buy it directly from the

1988
01:12:26,149 --> 01:12:25,600
website so i just recommend going to the

1989
01:12:29,590 --> 01:12:26,159
website

1990
01:12:31,910 --> 01:12:29,600
and then buying it fantastic

1991
01:12:33,990 --> 01:12:31,920
and we'll have this out we'll try and

1992
01:12:35,830 --> 01:12:34,000
sync it up with exactly the date that it

1993
01:12:37,110 --> 01:12:35,840
comes out so people can listen to it and

1994
01:12:39,270 --> 01:12:37,120
immediately

1995
01:12:40,709 --> 01:12:39,280
pop on over so you and i offline will

1996
01:12:41,430 --> 01:12:40,719
kind of figure out the best way to do

1997
01:12:45,270 --> 01:12:41,440
that

1998
01:12:47,590 --> 01:12:45,280
but again a man congratulations

1999
01:12:50,390 --> 01:12:47,600
job well done and thanks so much for

2000
01:12:52,709 --> 01:12:50,400
joining me

2001
01:12:54,630 --> 01:12:52,719
thank you man i appreciate it thanks

2002
01:12:56,070 --> 01:12:54,640
again to kurt chimongo for joining me

2003
01:12:57,430 --> 01:12:56,080
today on skeptico

2004
01:12:59,910 --> 01:12:57,440
be sure to check out his film better

2005
01:13:00,709 --> 01:12:59,920
left unsaid the one question i t up from

2006
01:13:03,030 --> 01:13:00,719
this interview

2007
01:13:04,630 --> 01:13:03,040
is the same old skeptical question i've

2008
01:13:05,750 --> 01:13:04,640
been harping on for the last few years

2009
01:13:09,189 --> 01:13:05,760
is

2010
01:13:12,709 --> 01:13:09,199
gee do you think all that absurdity

2011
01:13:16,470 --> 01:13:12,719
on the left on the wokeness stuff do you

2012
01:13:18,630 --> 01:13:16,480
think that's just accidental or could it

2013
01:13:21,430 --> 01:13:18,640
possibly be

2014
01:13:23,110 --> 01:13:21,440
socially engineered you know my answer

2015
01:13:24,790 --> 01:13:23,120
but i'd love to get your take especially

2016
01:13:25,669 --> 01:13:24,800
since there's a slightly different twist

2017
01:13:28,550 --> 01:13:25,679
here

2018
01:13:29,830 --> 01:13:28,560
given all that's said in this interview

2019
01:13:30,950 --> 01:13:29,840
let me know your thoughts of course

2020
01:13:34,149 --> 01:13:30,960
skeptical form

2021
01:13:37,350 --> 01:13:34,159
or anywhere else you can track down

2022
01:13:38,470 --> 01:13:37,360
the skeptico folks i have some good

2023
01:13:40,310 --> 01:13:38,480
shows coming up

2024
01:13:43,270 --> 01:13:40,320
lots of good interesting stuff coming

2025
01:13:47,890 --> 01:13:43,280
around stay with me for all of that

2026
01:13:47,900 --> 01:13:58,830
[Music]